Fat tyres & springy suspension sap energy & speed

[coops]

Also switch from non-suspension to front suspension and notice the lack of difference it makes.

I may well do that, though in reverse, so I will see.

 

[flecc]

Funnily enough where I am it seems the opposite now Flecc. Most/all of the shops I go in, and they seem to be competent bike engineers, tend to gree in prinicpal that sus-forks are only really needed off road, but "they would use them on road" and for commuter bikes "..it'd be better with rock shox" Ive heard a dozen times.

Weird init

John

Well they do have to sell them John, and the attitudes of some have softened somewhat in consequence, though they know that they are less efficient, in practice as well as in theory. Another influence has been the terrible state of road maintenance in this country in recent years, where on road can all too often resemble off road.

The fact is that on the Continent in the low countries where they've continuously cycled for well over a century and really know bikes, few bother with suspension and most cyclists use the traditional bike, often quite old in fact, not changing with fashions.

By contrast, in this country we deserted cycling for mopeds and then cars from the 1950s onwards and cycling all but died, with all our bike factories closing down. Then the fashion bikes came into being and kick started things again, with the Raleigh Chopper kids bikes and the "mountain bike" invention. The great majority of the British public have only known those and judge on that poor basis, since all people are "small c" conservatives and tend to keep with what they know. Unfortunately they don't know anything as much about bicycles as those Continentals. The same people tend to strongly argue for disc brakes in the same way, another silly and inefficient addition, but another fashion item they've grown up with. And of course many bike dealers are also of this younger half of the population so subject to the same influences

As I said to Caph though, it's up to the individuals, and I only inform, leaving each to do as they please. The sad fact is that some 2 million bikes are sold in this country every year but are hardly seen on the road. The major reason for that being that so many of them are pigs to pedal anywhere and often impossible uphill, due to their huge weight and inefficiency. If they were simple efficient bikes they'd be used much more in the way the Continentals do.
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[sopht]

My bikes have included small wheeled, an old oxford single speed (took me round France, as well as Oxford!), a big racer, a lovely German tourer, an MTB and a fast hybrid. I love bikes

To the original question, I don't like suspension for road racing, and don't do enough semi-off-road to mind, BUT I am really picky about tyres. For on road use I've just returned to Conti 622-32 top touring with huge relief after some Specialized 622-38 ex-nimbus. I think the difference in speed and feel is huge - I hated those fat tyres

For on-road my personal recommendation would be thinner, smoother and the best rubber compound you can afford. Suspension? Seat suspension is nice.

 

[Nick]

I think Flecc touched on a pertinent point, being the state of the roads. My hybrid rides more harshly with the weight of the motor than it did previously but, even so, on smooth roads it was fine with Continental Ultra Gatorskins, which were 28s I think. However, smooth roads are few and far between and I have been getting wider and wider tyres as well as a Thudbuster seatpost. All have helped and, with the motor, I've not noticed any drop in speed or range, which is partly why I'm hoping the Schwalbe Supremes at 28 x 2 will fit my bike, but it's going to be a very tight fit at best

 

[flecc]

All have helped and, with the motor, I've not noticed any drop in speed or range,

A front wheel motor definitely alters the case for sprung forks as I've observed in my suspension article, and thats even more true for poor road surfaces.
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[kraeuterbutter]

iam in the moment cycling a lot with 3 bikes..

my electric bike (2 big-apple 26"x2,35", no suspension, stell-frame, 19kg without batteries)

another mountainbike (mountainbike-tires but with a ring int he mittle so you can go very good onroad as well), steelframe, front spring suspension with about 4cm suspensiontravel, about 14kg heavy, no lock-out

another mountainbike, alu, 11,9kg, front-suspension with air, 8-10cm suspensiontravel, lock-out

--------------

first: at mountains you realy feel, that a suspension costs energy..
how bad will this be with an (cheap) rear-suspension ?!?

with the alu-moutnainbike and the soft air-suspension i realy have to lock it out going up a hill, otherwise it luffs all time
and you realy feel that it costs energy, your energy..

on the steel mountainbike the spring is so stiff, that it does not luff (or does only very minimal, maybe 1cm) also it does not have an lock-out
so for onroad its better than the not-locked-out alu-moutainbike
(it also seems to be quieter because of the steelframe compared to the alu-frame, i like it more)

so this stiff suspension only helps on bumps,... but does not do much when going up a hill..

for the electric bike:
today some guys on my flying-field realy wanted to testride it, so they did..
they were all very fond of the motor, the power, the speed AND mentioning, how smooth it was going over the gravel-road
and its true: the big-apple works great...
i also feel safer with this at wet rouds than with smaller tires.. no tests so far, just a feeling

i made today (14km one direction) a 32km/h average WITH the trailer and a 120m high hill and moderate motor-use (used only 36V and 2,6Ah for this 14km)

http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/Modellbau_Anhaenger/Bike_Anhaenger_am_Flugplatz_DSCF2757.jpg

do i miss a fork on the electric bike ?
no
unless you have realy bad roads with lot of bumbs or going offroad,
i prefere the smooth ride of the big-apples
compared to the harder ride on a only-front-suspension-bike

 

[JohnInStockie]

and its true: the big-apple works great...
i also feel safer with this at wet rouds than with smaller tires.. no tests so far, just a feeling

Does anyone know if Big Apples give better traction in the wet?

 

[coops]

Schwalbe rate them as 'good' for grip in wet, average for grip off-road & winter, John, same rating as M-plus. They also say M-Supremes (also available in 'balloonbike' size like the Big Apple) use a compound which gives very good grip on wet & slippery roads.

 

[flecc]

Does anyone know if Big Apples give better traction in the wet?

I'm fairly sure the Big Apples and other balloon tyres wouldn't fit under the Kalkhoff mudguards on either the Agattu or Pro Connect. They wouldn't fit in the Lafree either, without mudguard mods at least.
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[coops]

Thanks kb,

Your experience confirms my conclusion, that my suspension costs much more energy than my tyres.

My tyres are already 'balloonbike' sized (50-559) so I'd only need to swap forks .

Do you only find the energy cost on hills, or is your top speed with suspension also lower (on flat roads) too, as I find?

I'm glad you're getting good use from your electric bike now - I meant to ask you, do you know the rpm of the BF motor you have, and what diameter/circumference your motor wheel is now with the Big Apple? - My 26" MTB tyres are now 95% the size of my 28" Torq tyres!

Regards, Stuart.

 

[JohnInStockie]

I'm fairly sure the Big Apples and other balloon tyres wouldn't fit under the Kalkhoff mudguards on either the Agattu or Pro Connect. They wouldn't fit in the Lafree either, without mudguard mods at least.
.

Thanks Flecc, what do you think of the Supremes (not the band)?

 

[flecc]

Thanks Flecc, what do you think of the Supremes (not the band)?

I don't know the Supremes at all John, but like all Schwalbe tyres, they'd be a safe bet. The close fitting Kalkhoff mudguards are very restrictive where larger tyres are concerned though.

I notice kraeuterbutter doesn't have mudguards with the balloon Big Apple on the front wheel of his bike, and most I've seen have been like that.
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[JohnInStockie]

Yes Ive never seen any bike with Big Apples AND mudguards, so there must be something in that. I am concerned over puncture protection, grip in the wet (this is the north west), rolling resistance, and protection from crappy roads. Ive 'been there and done that' with the Marathon Plus's, they didnt work for me (5 punctures in about a year), so I'm open to ideas. Currently I have the Marathon Racers, which are much more flexible than the M+, faster and softer, but of course without the smartguard.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

coop: please reminde me in 2 days, iam than at home again and can measure the tires..

i have meanwhile also big-apple at the rear, look
here: http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/Modellbau_Anhaenger/Flugplatz_Bike_Anhaenger_ohne_Reini_DSCF2758.jpg

i mounted the wheel,
then i put 4-5bar into it, so it can make "pop" and sit good and round on the rim..
than i noticed: the wheel would not turn, the tire was blocked by the frame and brakes-arms..

not cool, the 60-tyre was too big...

but i had luck: with reduced air-pressure -about 2bar now - the tire can freely spin in the frame and the brake-arms also not touch the tiere..
but its a very tight fit (less than a 1mm at each side..)

mud-guards: i had never some on the bike, so thats no problem for me..
hmm.. difficult..
at front i have about 2cm from the tire up to were the fork-arms go together
so maybe you can find a plastic-mud-guard that fits

for rear: even with mountainbike-tires a classic, single mudguard would not fit (the rear brake-arms...)
but a two-piece-plastic-mudguard which is fixed on the saddlepost would work...

well. i don´t will drive it in rainy conditions, so not for me

 

[essexman]

Am i wrong but doesnt any suspension or flex reduce speed? Be it frame, tyre, fork, handlebar etc? (yes tyre grips do as well)

Thats why racing bikes are stiff so that power can be applied efficiently.

I notice it most strongly while cornering. I can take a corner very fast with speed preserved on my Tourer, The stiffer frame holds the speed as i dig into the bend. On my Agattu i feel the speed sucked out of the bike as the front forks compress on the bend. Its the same on a downhill as well, forward momentum is absorbed by the forks.

 

[flecc]

That's correct essexman, as I explained here.
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[kraeuterbutter]

Yes Ive never seen any bike with Big Apples AND mudguards

today when i was breakfasting a baloon-bike with big-apples drove by..
it had 26" and 60er tieres as mine..

AND: it had metal mudguards
looks like it was the way it came out of the factory so no home-made mudguards

so its not impossible

 

[flecc]

Giant make a couple of utility bikes with balloon tyres like Big Apples and mudguards, but they aren't electrics, and I imagine the tyres are Chinese copies rather than genuine Big Apples. Here's the Giant Vida:

They also make the Gloss and Areva models which are very similar. All three use 24" wheels but are not childrens bikes, being full size but aimed at the female market.
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[coops]

I think I'll have to take back what I said about suspension appearing to be the main source of drag: I gambled on the cheaper & easier option of changing the MTB tyres for narrower & better compound tyres, went for marathons size 559-40 (same width as on my Torq) and the rolling drag is now noticeably less (even at around 4.5bar/65PSI), handling & feel much improved and can quite comfortably ride at a slightly higher cadence than before: the speed difference is now much as you'd expect between 700C & 26" wheels.

I chose marathons because they use the same 'Allround' rubber compound as the Marathon-pluses and Big Apples too, which seems to roll nicely(noticeably better than the 'Schwalbe basic compound' of the Silento, I think, although their width & weight were the biggest factors), is very hardwearing, and they have good kevlarguard puncture protection too. They are also rather lighter than the previous tyres, so much quicker & easier to accelerate as a result - my MTB feels so much more like a 'normal' bike again now! I plan to use it for local riding and for exercise - it should still be good for many of the better off-road cycletracks I ride on.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

The effects of poor tyres are certainly far more noticeable than any suspension losses Stuart, changing them sometimes producing a dramatic difference. Front suspension effects are generally far more subtle, and it's only on very soft sprung front forks or rear suspension that the effect of those becomes obvious.
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