Getting the saddle height right for you

[Old Timer]

Up to now I`ve set my bikes up more or less to the standard Sheldon Brown method where he states " if you can touch the ground whilst on the saddle then you have your saddle too low"

Well, I`ve been doing some adjustments after experiencing aches in the knees and for me I think that a slightly lower saddle height than he suggest seems to suit me better and take away the aches.
For instance, I was out on my Evans conversion bike this afternoon and on that bike I can just about touch my toe on the ground when I stop, I`ve done the other leg stretch exercise down to the pedal to obtain the right height. Today after about 5 miles my knees where aching so I stopped and dropped my saddle 1/2" and the rest of the ride went fine. To all intent the height I now have my saddle set up is too low but it works for me.

Has anyone else got any views on the subject? or agrees or disagrees with the standard method of setting the height?

 

[flecc]

I prefer the standard method for fullest stretch, finding riding with knees more bent harder work and less effective.

Our individual knee condition varies greatly with age though, so I doubt there's any one right advice for all of us older folk.
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[allen-uk]

My views are distorted by the left leg being plastic, and thus not bending at the ankle.

I think the point is that Sheldon's scheme is fine for fit, able cyclists, but when old age or degrees of infirmity begin to kick in, then you have to modify it to suit your reality.

If your knees complain after a ride (a mile or more) then your saddle is probably too low. If not, leave it.

(My 'Gravitydropper' solves the problem by going up and down as I choose!)


Allen.

 

[Morag]

I have mine set lower than it should be, but I don't have any problems i.e. aches or pains anywhere, so as far as I'm concerned it works for me.

So I say whatever height is comfortable and doesn't give you trouble is the right height.

 

[JuicyBike]

We tend to establish a customer's level of confidence first, adjusting upwards with the experience / confidence of the customer, but never beyond "tip toes touching".
I guess the straighter the leg then the less strain on the joint, but I'm not sure the best power is derived from the muscles at flatter angles. A sports physio would know best...
My rowing days made use of thigh muscles mainly and the tendancy was to maximise thigh use by minimising the angle of the knee, until bum touched heal if possible. Cant see that working on a bike though.... maybe a penny farthing with gears...
I've only ever ridden for leisure though.
I do now, no wonder, have bad knees of course!

 

[Old Timer]

Surprising how just 1/2" makes a big difference. What I`ve just realised is that the last time I rode the Evans I was wearing standard thickish soled trainers and today I was wearing flat soled trainers that I bought to go with my new spiked pedals so that was probably what caused the pain but gets me thinking that if the tolerance is that close then I might just drop the saddle a touch more.

I realise that our knees are all different and when worn like mine then pushing the leg almost straight( although giving probably more power to a fit younger rider) might be why I`ve been having problems and lets face it, riding an E bike isn`t like riding a manual bike anyway. Under a lot of circumstances it is more a matter of just turning the crank rather than driving it around if you know what I mean.

 

[Synthman]

For me, I don't like a bike where I can't touch the ground, it makes me feel unsafe! I learned to ride slightly later in life. I have tried the correct height, found it difficult to get on and start off, but after that found I could get power to the wheels a lot easier. Felt sick being so high up though! My electric bike seat only has one height.

 

[flecc]

I have tried the correct height, found it difficult to get on and start off, but after that found I could get power to the wheels a lot easier.

Yes, that's the point of having the saddle high enough. Evolution has equipped us with the maximum leg strength for walking and running when the knee is arcing from slightly bent to nearly straight. If we try to walk with our knees at a right angle, we find it impossible for more than a moment, so we shouldn't try to put effort into pedals when seated low with the knee at that angle as so many do, young kids especially.
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[geostorm]

Many moons ago, when i was cc we were told that best to place pedal at lowest point and then p0sition foot underneath, but at the end of the day that due to personal requirements go for what suits you best.

 

[allen-uk]

Maybe in the future variable saddle heights will become a feature of top-end bikes. Apart from the Gravitydropper, which was really designed for loonies on mountain bikes to hurtle down cliffs with their feet banging on the ground, there is also something called
CRANK BROS Joplin 4 remote
which seems to answer the questions. It is hydraulic, rather than spring-operated, something like an office chair, and claims to be variable over 4".

So with it, like the Gravitydropper but with more personal control, you could start off with your feet on the ground, cycle off, then raise the saddle until your leg was at its more 'correct' position, i.e. extended at the bottom of the turn.

Never seen one in action. The Gravitydropper is fine, if expensive, but you are either up or down, so if you stop in a hurry you have to get your foot to concrete from 4" above where you'd like it to be. Not dangerous, just a new skill!


Allen.

 

[Teejay]

Well I'll be blowed

I was going to reply with something like 'what matters for the correct height is getting the distance from the saddle to the pedals right - and if your feet then can't touch the ground it's a sure sign the designer has made the bottom bracket too high. Pah, fashion &c'.

Whilst I still think that's right, mention of Sheldon Brown's website in this thread prompted me to look it up. There was the "Get out the saddle - one foot on the ground, the other pedal at 2 o'clock" technique for stops and starting off. What a revelation! Honestly in all my cycling life I've never had the technique put to me nor thought of it. A few exploratory wobbles round the car park at work and I had the hang of it. Then, during quite a long ride this evening, I put it into practice - and my word, it works a treat

So you can teach an old dog new tricks after all

 

[allen-uk]

Here is an American doing it:

YouTube - How to Get On and Off Your Road Bike Safely Video

Getting on, and off, that is.

Not sure what technique, if any, I used to use in my 2-legged days. It does strike me that there are cultural differences, though. I seem to remember seeing Dutch cyclists putting one foot on the pedal, scooting a few yards with the other foot, then swinging their leg over while on the move; when my Danish brother-in-law was here a few months back he did the same thing to get on my bike, in spite of his age and size (65 and big).

Allen.

 

[jbond]

With each new bike it seems to take me a month of fiddling with seat height before I'm happy and just forget about it. Adding a gel seat pad or changing to shoes with thicker soles in the winter is enough to get me going again.

You can get close by sitting on the bike and putting your heel on the pedal at full stretch. Your leg should be just about straight. When you then ride on the balls of your feet on the pedals, your leg reach will be about right. You'll probably be on tippy toes when stationary. You should be able to get to max cadence without swinging your body at all so it doesn't affect the steering.

 

[Bikerbob]

Just as a general observation, rather than suggesting that Old Timer has the wrong size of bike, aches in the knees can often be caused by the bike frame being too small even if it seems that the saddle is at the right height. Your whole geometry and the angle of your legs can be wrong. You may feel that you would like the saddle to be further back. Frame size is important - the reason that I mistrust all the 'one size fits all' bikes.

 

[allen-uk]

Just as a general observation, rather than suggesting that Old Timer has the wrong size of bike, aches in the knees can often be caused by the bike frame being too small

Well, this problem seems particularly prevalent with electric bikes, at least in my experience.

My ordinary non-electric Rayleigh, bog-standard hybrid, is easy to adjust for my unusually low position. In fact I can drop the saddle so low that it is TOO low, if I want to.

But when I tried a 51" Kalkhoff, I couldn't even get on the thing without risk of injury to my manly parts; the 48" (is it the 48, the next one down?) was possible, but only just. The Wisper 905 was okay, just, on the test run, at the bottom of its seatpost, but once I took delivery of my brand new one, and I'd fitted my necessary Gravitydropper gear, it was about an inch too high - I had to take a hacksaw to the seatpost to be able to lower it enough.

And I'm not very short - 5'10" - although the plastic leg with the non-articulating ankle probably brings my 'working' height down 2 or 3 inches.

Maybe it's just fashion (I find much modernity harder to cope with than it should be). Any cycle historians on board? Has bike design, particularly in relation to bottom-bracket positioning and saddle height, changed over the past decade or so? And was there ever a GOOD reason for mucking about with it?

Allen.

 

[flecc]

Has bike design, particularly in relation to bottom-bracket positioning and saddle height, changed over the past decade or so? And was there ever a GOOD reason for mucking about with it?

Allen.

The Dutch are famously a tall people, followed closely by the Germans, so their designs have always tended to suit the tall, one reason for the common 28" wheel sizes compared with the 26" wheels that used to be commonplace in the UK.

In recent decades we in the UK have been getting taller so that is reflecting in designs now. The Chinese don't ride the type of e-bikes we do, so the designs they send here are probably reflecting those considerations.
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[rh1968]

The ideal saddle height has nothing to do with frame size, whether you can touch the ground etc - you should set the saddle height to your size (as detailed in a moment) and if then you can't get at least one foot down safely at a standstill choose a smaller frame.

The ideal saddle height is your inside leg (base of stockinged foot to crotch, measued straight and as accurately as you can get it) multiplied by 1.09. The resulting measurement should be the distance between the top of the saddle and the pedal when the crank is at the lowest point (i.e. 6 o'clock) of its rotation. This formula has been used for years for racers as being the most bio-mechanically efficient, and it also has the bonus that in fully extending your leg on each rotation it should help smooth out any knee or other niggles.

Hope this helps!

 

[Mussels]

Well, this problem seems particularly prevalent with electric bikes, at least in my experience.

My ordinary non-electric Rayleigh, bog-standard hybrid, is easy to adjust for my unusually low position. In fact I can drop the saddle so low that it is TOO low, if I want to.

But when I tried a 51" Kalkhoff, I couldn't even get on the thing without risk of injury to my manly parts; the 48" (is it the 48, the next one down?) was possible, but only just. The Wisper 905 was okay, just, on the test run, at the bottom of its seatpost, but once I took delivery of my brand new one, and I'd fitted my necessary Gravitydropper gear, it was about an inch too high - I had to take a hacksaw to the seatpost to be able to lower it enough.

And I'm not very short - 5'10" - although the plastic leg with the non-articulating ankle probably brings my 'working' height down 2 or 3 inches.

Maybe it's just fashion (I find much modernity harder to cope with than it should be). Any cycle historians on board? Has bike design, particularly in relation to bottom-bracket positioning and saddle height, changed over the past decade or so? And was there ever a GOOD reason for mucking about with it?

Allen.

We are about the same height but I had to get a taller seat post on the 905 as it didn't adjust up far enough, I would think that your working height has come down more than 3 inches.

The ideal saddle height has nothing to do with frame size, whether you can touch the ground etc - you should set the saddle height to your size (as detailed in a moment) and if then you can't get at least one foot down safely at a standstill choose a smaller frame.

The ideal saddle height is your inside leg (base of stockinged foot to crotch, measued straight and as accurately as you can get it) multiplied by 1.09. The resulting measurement should be the distance between the top of the saddle and the pedal when the crank is at the lowest point (i.e. 6 o'clock) of its rotation. This formula has been used for years for racers as being the most bio-mechanically efficient, and it also has the bonus that in fully extending your leg on each rotation it should help smooth out any knee or other niggles.

Hope this helps!

A smaller frame won't help you touch the ground, you need a frame with a lower BB regardless of the frame size. The mountain bike style of bike has a higher BB which is why it's normal now to get off the saddle when stopping, I usually find a kerb to put my foot on so I don't have to bother but it's no problem when I do have to get out of the saddle. I've tried riding with the seat too low and in a variety of ways it gets painful.

 

[rh1968]

A smaller frame won't help you touch the ground, you need a frame with a lower BB regardless of the frame size.

Quite agree, I expressed myself badly - what I meant by "safely" was being able to stand safely at a standstill without crushing the family jewels!

 

[allen-uk]

what I meant by "safely" was being able to stand safely at a standstill without crushing the family jewels!

This does point up a difference in approach between the majority of ebikers, who (like Mr Polly) just to want to get somewhere, and on the other hand the more 'thrusting' bikers who want to get their heads down, their bums up, and then tear about the place just as fast as they can go.

It might reflect our generally older age, as at our times of life we are more concerned with our creaking joints than with mph.

A