Giant Suede

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Flecc - I can understand your sentiments, but I personally really like pedelec. I like the way I dont have to worry about twisting a throttle, I just pedal, as much or as little as I like. For me its a bit like an automatic car, you want it to change gear at low revs.

I can see a throttle would give you more control, but it also give you another control to worry about. BTW - what happens when you go around a corner with your arm out, do you then lose power for a few secs?

John
 
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nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

By flying kiwi
Maybe it's just that I was overtaken for the first time going up a hill by a lycra clad cyclist on a bike yesterday (and I couldn't catch up on the flat either - without my legs going into egg beater mode, roll on that 16T rear sprocket)
Maybe you should buy a TORQ:D your be the leader of the pack:) NO cyclist has gone past me yet:D NIGEL
 

Flying Kiwi

Pedelecer
Dec 25, 2006
209
0
Buckinghamshire
On my SRAM P5 twist with 17 tooth rear sprocket I can pedal to as much as 26 mph at the limit
Either your tyres add a few mph to the speed of your bike or you're better at egg beater leg action than me, 26 mph is really some achievement on the flat for a similarly geared Twist.

Since the twist only makes a real contribution of power at very low cadences, it doesn't let a fully fit rider benefit from efficient pedalling combined with power. With a throttle I can dictate when and how I get power, not some Panasonic designer who may know nothing of cycling efficiency and has designed only for one class of user.
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I don't understand, isn't that what the eco or power off settings are for? ie if you want more exercise, you simply reduce or turn off altogether the level of motor assistance. The only reason why the motor power goes away as you pedal faster is because the top speed under power in top gear has to be under 15 mph and also because the motor works most efficiently when in its RPM power band. If you're someone who likes to keep up a high cadence for excercise you can still do so, it seems a clever choice to me that in these circumstances the motors not going to help out fully because it can tell you're wanting to put in effort. I see it as a system thats designed to put in the most power when it's really needed.

If a more sophisticated system is sought, there's always the sort used on the Swizzbee although that uses both an incremental adjustment panel as well as a throttle. It seems as if they realise that a throttle isn't a complete solution as well. Personally I like the simplicity of a switch on and go or set and forget type system. Also unlike with motorbikes where you have indicator lights, most e-bikes rely on hand signals for turns and I can see problems with that as well as coordinating twist shift gear changers, I can envisage RSI setting in from the excessive wrist twisting :)
 

Flying Kiwi

Pedelecer
Dec 25, 2006
209
0
Buckinghamshire
By flying kiwi
Maybe it's just that I was overtaken for the first time going up a hill by a lycra clad cyclist on a bike yesterday (and I couldn't catch up on the flat either - without my legs going into egg beater mode, roll on that 16T rear sprocket)
Maybe you should buy a TORQ:D your be the leader of the pack:) NO cyclist has gone past me yet:D NIGEL
The only way that would have helped is if it was de-restricted as he was way above 15 mph and as this part was on a road and I'm not that naughty (well at least not in that way :eek: ), that was a no no. Additionally, I should have mentioned it was a long hill which wasn't gentle so there's no way I would have avoided being passed at that stage. I guess *shock horror*, I'll need to work more on improving my fitness.
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
@Kiwi

Yep, back to Eco mode for a few weeks and improved power to weight ratio :D
 
Nov 10, 2006
178
14
Midlands
bloody purists:rolleyes:
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,848
30,402
I can see a throttle would give you more control, but it also give you another control to worry about. BTW - what happens when you go around a corner with your arm out, do you then lose power for a few secs?

John
The twistgrip is on the left John, and left turn arm signals aren't necessary most of the time. Also, I've also been a motorcyclist for much of my life, so a twistgrip is second nature to me.
 
Nov 10, 2006
178
14
Midlands
I only really use the button to get to "top speed" then use the pedlec to maintain that velocity. Turning is easy, besides I tend to slow down a bit when manoeuvring.

(Still looking for someone to speed hack the VPC controller on the suede E.)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,848
30,402
Either your tyres add a few mph to the speed of your bike or you're better at egg beater leg action than me, 26 mph is really some achievement on the flat for a similarly geared Twist.

I don't understand, isn't that what the eco or power off settings are for? ie if you want more exercise, you simply reduce or turn off altogether the level of motor assistance. The only reason why the motor power goes away as you pedal faster is because the top speed under power in top gear has to be under 15 mph and also because the motor works most efficiently when in its RPM power band. If you're someone who likes to keep up a high cadence for excercise you can still do so, it seems a clever choice to me that in these circumstances the motors not going to help out fully because it can tell you're wanting to put in effort. I see it as a system thats designed to put in the most power when it's really needed.

Also unlike with motorbikes where you have indicator lights, most e-bikes rely on hand signals for turns and I can see problems with that as well as coordinating twist shift gear changers, I can envisage RSI setting in from the excessive wrist twisting :)
Those circumstances don't apply. For example, tackling a steep hill I might want to have power assist and want to pedal efficiently. That's impossible on that Panasonic unit, I've either got to do almost all the work, or use a very inefficient slow and medically dangerous cadence. By that I'm referring to all the wrecked knees that cyclists get from poor pedalling habits. Higher cadences reduce the pressure applied on the knee joint for a given power and slow cadence climbs shouldn't be done for your body's sake. Unless you want to join the legions who have to have replacement knee joints in later life. :confused:

As for "egg whisk", the optimum 90 cadence on a twist/SRAM P5 gives 23.8 mph in top gear, and my limit of 26 mph is a cadence of 98, not very special for a younger rider, though good for my age. At 15 mph the twist P5 cadence is 56, very slow.

As I replied to John, e-bikes normally use left hand twistgrips. For most the history of motor cycles, they haven't had indicators, they are a very recent addition, and signals prior to that were done by hand, as we used to in cars as well of course. :eek:

That's the trouble with you youngsters :) , you can't multi task in the way that we had to. I used to ride motor cycles that had a hand gearchange lever on the side of the petrol tank, an ignition advance/retard lever on the handlebars that had to be continuously adjusted, a mixture control that also had to be continuously adjusted, and a hand adjusted drip oil feed for the engine low down on the side of the crankcase which had to increased or decreased according to speed intentions. And yes, we had to give hand signals as well, and I passed my motor cycle test in a very busy town centre on one of those at the age of 16. Car steering wheels also had those manual engine controls, often on the steering wheel spokes.

The thought that you guys feel you can't cope with one little control I find mind boggling!

Twistgrips have many advantages. A few minutes ago I came back from shopping with a very heavy load. There's a very steep bank to where I walk the bike for unloading, and that's a pig with the twist when I have to heave it up there. With the Q bike/Torq/Quando, I just walk alongside with the bike driving itself and the load, dead easy. In a congested traffic situation at an almost standstill uphill, the throttle can look after the motion control in a way that pedelec can't. On the very steepest hills that can't be ridden, twistgrip control means the bike can power it's own weight up there as you stroll alongside.

Pedelec just doesn't compare in any of those circumstances, it's just too restricted to the one function, lacking adaptability. Remember, I rode pedelec for four years, but now I'm relieved to have throttle control and wouldn't go back under any circumstances.
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JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Flecc - you yourself have been a VERY vocal pro-twist commentator. the bike was regarded as the best for a long time, even with the low cadence you mention, though I have always riden with low cadence, even as a young whippersnapper, I [prefer it and I think most people do most of the time.

As regards your shopping, well all I can say is looking at the loads you have pulled on your trailer with that nasty pedelec twist, and knowing how much I weigh along with all my gear and the hills I traverse without stopping on the twist, then you must have had one hell of a lot of shopping.

I say that pedelec is a better tool for a commuters bike assistance control, its simple, its controlled and it helps when the usually less knowledgeable commuters cadence drops and they are busy trying to change gear and throttle whilst looking out for the automobiles, Model T Fords, and other combusting velocipedes and non-horse drawn omni-buses that we have these days.

I do agree though that there are situations where one has an advantage over the other, and definately agree that throttle has the advantage when it comes to walking the bike whilst talking to a friend, or smoking a cigarette, making a cup of coffee, reprogramming your handlebar mounted sat-nav, indeed many many advantages in those situations. :D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,848
30,402
Yes, and I still praise the twist software and the way it makes use of very limited power through the gears to cope with hills and tow trailers.

But as I've explained, it does under some circumstances preclude efficient cycling, and since competent bikes have become available with that option not ruled out, it makes sense to use them for anyone wanting optimum fitness maintenance.

After I bought the twist for towing a trailer on the local hills, I hung on to my old bike for a further year, even though I hadn't intended to, simply because of that missing element when hill climbing. That's not a criticism of the twist, just the observation that it's aimed at an entirely different market.

That shopping I mentioned was in walking it up a 1 in 4 grassy bank, it wasn't the amount but just the effort of pushing the bike and load up there on a non twistgrip bike.
 
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Nov 10, 2006
178
14
Midlands
Pedelec was invented to extract range out of poor battery technology. Everyone should take a test ride on a throttle bike..

Giant really missed a trick by not giving a retrofit throttle option. The controller still has the strip connector inside too!
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Andrew I still think I disagree. I suppose at the end of the day, its what you prefer for your purpose. I can see as Flecc neatly pointed out some really good examples of uses for Throttle powered bikes. However I think that pedelec still has an advantage in 1 area, and that's, 'You have to pedal'.

It could be to tempting to sometimes twist your hand and ease off the pedals completely. Yes of course you have the choice on throttle driven versions, but I know that I would be much more than sorely tempted. You see for me, as I said, the e-bike also saves me paying gym fees, and if I dont get the moderate exercise that pedelec gives me (whether I like it or not), then I may as well just buy a moped (or not sell my car) and restart the 'love that lettuce' class :( , as that was one of the main reasons for the bike at all.

I realise that this is not most peoples situation though.

John
 
Nov 10, 2006
178
14
Midlands
lol you are making me feel guilty now:eek:
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,848
30,402
I agree with that John, and you should enjoy what you prefer, and my position is that it's properly an option for users, and not one for bureaucrats to dictate to me what I must use.

The one advantage of the restrictions that the control freaks are forcing on us is their multiplicity, making them impossible to enforce. Despite that reassuring thought, I think throttling an e-bike is secondary in priority to throttling the bureaucrats. :D
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Bikerbob

Pedelecer
May 10, 2007
215
0
Isle of Man
Funny how little things can change your mind. I was with John on this issue, probably because we both bought electric bikes for similar reasons (and I was brought up in Stockport so you have to show solidarity). However a recent health scare made me realise that Andrew's modification might be a handy thing to have - 'just in case'. You just need a good excuse Andrew :)
 
Nov 10, 2006
178
14
Midlands
It is only one button..you can even "crimp" tee the wires into the existing connector. No cutting or voiding warranty.

That one button makes the bike think it is being pedalled at full whack.

The US spec bike has a throttle AND cruise control as standard!

Just eat more fibre instead:D