Giant Twist Express

Not sure if this machine has been been mentioned on the Forum already, but it's due out next month apparently. Don't know too much about it unfortunately, other than it looks like a standard Giant front hub job with 'panier' style batteries.

Why do companies so often choose to put batteries on the rear rack when adding to a standard bike? The frame main triangle is a much better place for the battery.

I guess it's an easy option for Giant, in that they don't have to make any frame/geometry modifications and can use one of their standard frames.

 

The frame on the Express looks like one of their sporty hybrid models (CRS?), than the previous Twists (1.0 etc), which have/had a more 'sit upright' geometry.

Why do companies so often choose to put batteries on the rear rack when adding to a standard bike? The frame main triangle is a much better place for the battery.

 

I couldn't agree more John, but Giant have been prone to some very odd decisions over the years. These twin batteries severely compromise the pannier options on the new Twist, a bit silly on a utility bike.

Not sure if this machine has been been mentioned on the Forum already, but it's due out next month apparently. Don't know too much about it unfortunately, other than it looks like a standard Giant front hub job with 'panier' style batteries.

 

It's the first I've heard of it, but hardly surprising since the new Twist has been given a very firm thumbs down on it's slowness.

 

I'm fearful of the outcome though, since A to B only achieved just over 40 miles on those twin 26 volt 10 Ah lithium batteries, and more power could shorten that still further.

 

Maybe they've reverted to the 36 volts that motor had in the better performing Suede, though that's unlikely given the battery positions.

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There's no mention of the voltage in the article. If I could figure out how to paste an image into a message, I could scan the photo and post it on here. How do I do that? When I click the insert image icon all I get is a message asking for a URL...

Two ways, but number two will be best for you:

 

1) If you have somewhere to post pictures online like flickr.com or similar, you can display those here in this way. Just go to your web image, right click it and select Copy Image Location from the context menu, or if that doesn't show, click Properties on the context menu that appears and highlight and copy the URL there on the Properties page. Then return to the Reply box here, position the cursor below the text where you want the photo to appear and click the yellow mountain scene icon above. You'll get a box to paste in the link and ok it.

 

Then submit the reply and your photo will appear.

 

2) Click the paper clip button above the reply box and have a look at the photo size rules there. Then make sure the picture conforms to those rules, and preferably is sized to 800 x 600 pixels or less to avoid the huge oversize things that some insist on posting.

 

If all's well, click the paperclip again and browse to your image, then upload it. Then click the paperclip again and you'll see the image name, click on that and it will be attached at the point of your cursor in the text box.

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Thanks Flecc, et voila:

 

[ATTACH]344.vB[/ATTACH]

 

Sorry about the quality of the image.

No problem! That's the same lithium batteries and mounting, so it looks like a controller change to boost things. That will make the range even less impressive for twin 10 Ah batteries, probably less than a Wisper 905se with it's one 14 Ah battery, and still slower than that I'll bet.

 

Poor Giant, their eighth e-bike design and still they are floundering around.

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why start knocking it before it is even released,they are a big brand selling their bikes at reasonable prices,at least parts on the giant bikes dont start working loose after a couple of hundred miles,they may not be the fastest but generally climb well (if a little slowly) and are usually reliable,the sanyo motor climbed slowly but surely but was classed as a poor hill climber by a to b,i found it quite a good climber even after a sakura,( which had the same motor as a powabike), the only downside was the drag from the motor when riding without power as with many hub motors.negative comments on bikes like these,can make people look for far better electric bikes which do not yet exist,there may be slightly better performing bikes but only by a small margin,often compromising extra speed for poor hillclimbing and not riding like a normal bike,or climbing well but rather slowly.

Except that far better bikes do exist, and at reasonable prices.

 

That's why I knock it, just as I've praised them when they have got it right.

 

We're all entitled to our opinion and I'll express mine as I wish and when and where I wish.

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Edited July 22, 200817 yr by flecc

Does anyone have any more details on this bike (weight, motor power, frame sizes available, e.t.c.)

 

Thanks

 

John

Does anyone have any more details on this bike (weight, motor power, frame sizes available, e.t.c.)

 

Thanks

 

John

 

Everything except the frame style, weight, size is covered in A to B issue 58, February 2007 John. It's a medium powered motor of some 400 watts peak which appeared years ago in the USA and was long discontinued when Giant picked it up from Sanyo who made it for the US Birkestrand Corporation originally. Contrary to what Paul posted above, A to B said it climbed quite well, but they've reported at various times on how slow it is and that the range of a little over 40 miles on two 10 Ah batteries is nowhere near the claims for it. The motor is very high drag for pedalling without power since it has no freewheel. It's supposed to regenerate power, but unlike the BionX system, that doesn't seem to work to any measurable extent.

 

A to B's website summary says that its "dreary", and having ridden it, I endorse what they say, hence my remarks above. In it's original form as the Giant Suede at £600 it was a good buy, although somewhat spoilt by poor battery quality, but after revamp as the Twist 1 at around £1400, it's anything but a good buy, and a frame change is hardly going to rescue it.

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Edited July 23, 200817 yr by flecc

hi i have just been looking at some photos of the express and it looks like a different motor to the twist although i wouldent say that definitley as photos not to clear

 

jim

The new Twist Express LOOKS a very different bike than the one reviewed in AtoB issue 58. A better looking frame style and a more 'sporty' image with derailleur rather than hub gears. I assume we don't yet know the details on weight and price. I take flecc's point that the fact that it apparently continues the same battery/motor setup isn't at all promising. However Giant's network of local dealers is a big plus and as my Giant Suede continues to battle gamely on I do wish Giant well in producing a worthwhile replacement. This probably isn't it, but I'd like to see how the new bike performs before we write it off - maybe Giant have managed some improvements. Probably an expression of hope over reality though!

hi i have just been looking at some photos of the express and it looks like a different motor to the twist although i wouldent say that definitley as photos not to clear

 

jim

 

It is the same one Jim, the same controller unit and batteries, and exactly the same front wheel detachable connector for the Sanyo made motor.

 

With a different electric set as well as a different bike it wouldn't be the Twist any more, and Giant have always renamed for the slightest change, Suede, Argue, Twist models for example, all fundamentally the same base system.

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I do wish Giant well in producing a worthwhile replacement. This probably isn't it, but I'd like to see how the new bike performs before we write it off - maybe Giant have managed some improvements. Probably an expression of hope over reality though!

 

As do I Bob, but I've followed their antics over the years and this shows no worthwhile change that I can see.

 

The problem is that when changing from the 36 volt Suede to the 26 volt system for the Twist, they sacrificed speed and power for range but didn't really achieve that either. In answer to the justified criticisms of the Twist's slowness they bring this out, and if they've boosted the power the range will have deteriorated further. What is really needed is a completely new start for marketing a bike at £1400, not tarting up a £600 model, though I think they aren't suited to making e-bikes and should stay out of the market while it's small.

 

I suspect they are mainly relying on the weight decrease to improve performance. The Step Through model is a hefty 30.1 kilos due to the twin batteries and sprung forks, so this will be around 26 kilos to 27 kilos, still no lightweight.

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Edited July 23, 200817 yr by flecc

yes i had got it wrong

 

jim

I think they aren't suited to making e-bikes and should stay out of the market while it's small.

 

It's puzzling how the company that brought us the much admired Lafree, should seem to be so 'off-the-pace', though maybe the bike will surprise us. Perhaps they don't have a British (i.e. hilly) market in mind, and are more focused on the low countries?

I can't agree that the likes of Giant should stay out of the market, flecc, they just need to produce better electric bikes. (I realise you meant as a temporary measure until they get it right).

 

I may be an extreme case, living on an island, but I'm a little reluctant to pay £1400 for a bike, plus £90 delivery, with a high risk of damage in transit, and then face transport problems if the bike has a major fault. I think similar considerations probably apply even to people in the more far flung areas of mainland UK. In the case of the last bike I bought by 'mail order' it seemed to have been laid flat on the ground while people walked over it. There were dirty boot marks all over the packaging and large holes where their boots had gone through between the bike frame. When I bought the Suede from a local dealer there was no delivery charge, they gave me a £30 discount because I'd had to wait, it was in perfect condition and well prepared when I collected it, there was a free adjustment service when it had bedded in, and I get friendly willing service when I go back to the shop. That's what larger manufacturers with big dealer networks can offer. Maybe the present economic climate will encourage them to take electric bikes seriously.

 

Short of that I'd like to see the present suppliers of the better elecric bikes engaging local bike shops as dealers rather than us having to buy from them direct.

It's puzzling how the company that brought us the much admired Lafree, should seem to be so 'off-the-pace', though maybe the bike will surprise us. Perhaps they don't have a British (i.e. hilly) market in mind, and are more focused on the low countries?

 

It's the profit motive that's the problem. They are a huge company, the world's largest cycle manufacturer and used to very healthy profits from that business. Like any such company, they expect the same of all divisions/departments, but the electric side has never delivered since big companies aren't good at small things.

 

Created with the Dutch Lafree people, their first design, the original heavy Lafree, was rather poor and soundly trounced by the better Yamaha, so it was withdrawn.

 

They then turned to Panasonic and made a much lighter bike, the Lafree Twist, so they played little part themselves in that design, which was excellent. Once again though they complained they couldn't make profits so they moved it upmarket, making some incredibly silly decisions on the way, showing how little they understood about this subject.

 

So they again went upmarket with the expensive ST model, but that still didn't produce the profits "upstairs" wanted. In a final bit of silliness, they answered the long made plea for a larger battery with a 9Ah version, and we were treated to the ludicrous situation of one wing of their marketing announcing the new battery while another wing announced that the entire series was to be discontinued.

 

So the electric side, doubtless under huge pressure to perform, swung completely the other way with a cheap bike using a long discarded motor, the £600 Suede, probably to appeal to a mass market which of course didn't exist. However they cheapened the battery so much that it was the cause of many complaints, and the bike never had a chance of getting the profits wanted anyway.

 

I see the Twist 1 and 2 as a desperate attempt to get the sort of profits they are used to by trying to sell what is essentially a budget bike at very high prices. While many other manufacturers struggle to meet demand, these models languish in dealers showrooms mostly unloved and unwanted, so this latest attempt is obviously to try and kickstart some activity.

 

You can see from all the foregoing (and there's much more I could report) that they have no sense of direction and simply can't perform in this market.

 

Hence my saying they should stop wasting time and money and stick to what they do know, making normal bikes, until and if the e-bike market grows big enough for them to invest bigtime in real expertise.

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Edited July 23, 200817 yr by flecc

I can't agree that the likes of Giant should stay out of the market, flecc, they just need to produce better electric bikes. (I realise you meant as a temporary measure until they get it right).

 

 

See my reply and reasoning Bob, posted after the above. It's not so much about the bikes themselves as the suitability and aptitudes of this company, neither of which begin to match the need. They simply don't know how to produce a better e-bike as their history so clearly shows, and don't know where to start.

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When I went to try the Giant Twist at my local dealer in Lytham St. Annes the sales man seemed completely shocked that I was interested in it and tried to talk me out of buying it. 'Only for old ladies' I think he said and 'you'd be mad to buy that when you can get a full carbon fibre bike much cheaper'. So it doesn't look like their dealers have much faith in them either.

 

They seemed pretty good quality actually although very very slow and heavy. I could see them having quite a good market in Lytham St. Annes given the population of wealthy elderly people.

 

They seemed pretty good quality actually although very very slow and heavy. I could see them having quite a good market in Lytham St. Annes given the population of wealthy elderly people.

 

They are good quality, true of all Giant bikes, and it's only the e-bike design aspects that are the problem. The only time they got that fully right was when they used Panasonic's expertise combined with Dutch cycle design.

 

As for those wealthy elderly people, I think few of them anywhere want to ride any sort of a bike and prefer the very nice car that stands in the drive.

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As for those wealthy elderly people, I think few of them anywhere want to ride any sort of a bike and prefer the very nice car that stands in the drive.

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Very true now I think about it!