GreenEdge or Dahon folders, anyone?

[bode]

What I need from an electric bike is possibly a bit unusual, in that, if all went according to plan, it would be used regularly in two different parts of the country.

Actually, I should have said electric bikes, because hopefully my wife will join me in this enterprise! Incidentally, I am 5'11"/13st., and she is 5'4"/8st. The bikes would be used for excursions/exercise (not too strenuous). I am 63 and almost retired (gradually fading out from the world of work).

We live in mid-Hertfordshire, which is moderately hilly, but without anything too startling (and where I imagine most e-bikes would cope), but go very often to Bath, which as everyone probably knows, is blessed with extremely steep (and long) hills. Although I realise that they are a compromise, the bikes would have to be folders, as we would want to transport them back and forth in the car boot (I do have a normal removable rear-mounted bike rack, but would not be interested in carrying two heavy machines regularly that way on a 260-mile round trip! Besides, we would probably want to leave them out of sight sometimes).

I went to the Electric Transport Shop in Cambridge and tried a few folders, but the only one that I took to was a GreenEdge. I think this is a new model on the market, and I take on board various warnings in these forums about early adoption, but wonder if anyone has any experience with one of these?

Another model that I am interested in, though have not yet tried, is the Dahon MU P8 conversion from C. H. White (in Malmesbury, not far from Bath, so no doubt will be able to visit before long). I know that homeoz for one has good things to say about this bike, but what I really want to know is if it would be up to the hills of Bath without excessive pedal-power. Also, although I think that a NiMh battery sounds more suitable for our needs, and these bikes are supplied with them, I am a bit alarmed to read of growing problems over replacement supplies of this type, because of their being supplanted by the Lithium variety.

I have read all the very favourable comments, by flecc and others, about the Quando, but having tried one or two single-gear models, found it very frustrating not to be able to assist with the pedals once a decent speed was reached.

Any comments or suggestions gratefully received...

 

[flecc]

Also the Quando is quite large, and many car boots wouldn't take two of them. It's also fairly heavy at around 25 kilos ready for the road, so some muscle and a low boot sill are desirable.

Those Bath hills are problematic for most e-bikes, both steep and quite long, and even the most powerful need a fair degree of input from the rider. Only the traditional Powabykes, Panasonic drive-through-gears bikes and the most powerful eZee models with the newest battery seem to be fully up to the job, and folders in general will require quite a big input from the rider.

If money is no object, the BikeTech folder is only 18 kilos, similar to the Nano Brompton's weight, and uses the Panasonic system. Heres a photo, and the UK agent is Vita Electric.
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[homemoz]

Hi bode,
Difficult choice to have to make around electric folders. I really struggled to find anything that suited before settling on the Dahon Mu (CH White) conversion. Have now used the bike for 6 months, with one month off due to an accident - not the fault of the bike - & recorded in this forum. For the record, I am 54 years old and reasonably fit. The bike is used mainly for commuting.

The strengths are the Dahon frame which I really like, the range of gears and the neatness of the conversion, which I think looks pretty good. Weaknesses include the lowish power of the motor at 180 watts. Its fine for the moderate hills around my part of East Yorkshire but would struggle on anything more taxing. The thing I don't like is reliance on the throttle which I find tiresome to keep holding open. I have modified it to make the grip easier, but still would prefer something which gives a choice between throttle & pedelec. I have also replaced the NIMH battery with a 10 amp LiFePO4 which increases the range significantly.

Would I buy the same bike again? If I needed a portable folder that is rideable with or without electric power, then probably yes, with some reservations depending on where I lived, terrain etc. However, I am now considering buying a non-folding electric bike with such luxuries as suspension and pedelec function, so the Dahon hasn't really met my needs in the way that I hoped. Having said that, I've got nothing but praise for CH White who were an excellent firm to deal with.

I notice that Wisper bikes are advertising a new range of folders. At 250 watts, these might provide more power than the Dahon, although the downside is with the gear range which is typical of electric folders generally.

 

[oldosc]

Hi bode,
Difficult choice to have to make around electric folders. I really struggled to find anything that suited before settling on the Dahon Mu (CH White) conversion. Have now used the bike for 6 months, with one month off due to an accident - not the fault of the bike - & recorded in this forum. For the record, I am 54 years old and reasonably fit. The bike is used mainly for commuting.

The strengths are the Dahon frame which I really like, the range of gears and the neatness of the conversion, which I think looks pretty good. Weaknesses include the lowish power of the motor at 180 watts. Its fine for the moderate hills around my part of East Yorkshire but would struggle on anything more taxing. The thing I don't like is reliance on the throttle which I find tiresome to keep holding open. I have modified it to make the grip easier, but still would prefer something which gives a choice between throttle & pedelec. I have also replaced the NIMH battery with a 10 amp LiFePO4 which increases the range significantly.

Would I buy the same bike again? If I needed a portable folder that is rideable with or without electric power, then probably yes, with some reservations depending on where I lived, terrain etc. However, I am now considering buying a non-folding electric bike with such luxuries as suspension and pedelec function, so the Dahon hasn't really met my needs in the way that I hoped. Having said that, I've got nothing but praise for CH White who were an excellent firm to deal with.

I notice that Wisper bikes are advertising a new range of folders. At 250 watts, these might provide more power than the Dahon, although the downside is with the gear range which is typical of electric folders generally.

I think I am having the same problem, I have the Agattu, but even with the improvement with my biking (have just clocked up 250 miles since 19may, not a lot but more than in the last three years) The terrain where I live will only let me do 30Km(18 miles) at average 0f about 12mph I am looking for a bike for Jenny who is 5 3" (same age as me) but a bit of hip problem new makes us have a step thro. I also want a bit of throttle control, so that if we have to go up the bike will carry its'own weight (we do a fair bit of off road)
I have been forced (nearly ) to consider the green Edge option ver seriously..but when I enquired at C.... no one could tell me if I could fit a shimato cassete to the back wheel of the black ridge (silverado has gears), I find this lack of enthuasism worrying , bet Flecc(sneeky way to involve the Guru) would have the answer, or soon find it.
Apart from that nearly only difference seems to be apart from £100 the Black Star has the 10amph battery which I want
Oh and what is the diff between Zero start, 0 assistance to power as opposed to non zero start 1:1 assistance to power, I think I understand but

 

[flecc]

Hi Flecc

Vita Electric is now closed its doors sadly.

Regards

Scott

Thanks for the information Scott. It's a pity, since they could have so easily have been a London agent for the Kalkhoffs with suitable experience of the system.

Given the demand for capable steep hill climbing light e-folders, plus your previous experience in this field, could it be time for the Panasonic folder here again? The acceptance of high priced quality e-bikes is far better now than when you first brought them in.
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[flecc]

Oh and what is the diff between Zero start, 0 assistance to power as opposed to non zero start 1:1 assistance to power, I think I understand but

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but if it's a reference to having to pedal some bikes off the mark before the power kicks in, that's not usually a problem, since the power kicks in quite quickly, so just the initial pushing off is often enough. The only time that could be a problem is if having to start off uphill.

1 to 1 power is a different thing altogether, being just a limitation on the amount a motor is allowed to contribute to meet with one of the legal requirements in Japan.
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[oldosc]

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but if it's a reference to having to pedal some bikes off the mark before the power kicks in, that's not usually a problem, since the power kicks in quite quickly, so just the initial pushing off is often enough. The only time that could be a problem is if having to start off uphill.

1 to 1 power is a different thing altogether, being just a limitation on the amount a motor is allowed to contribute to meet with one of the legal requirements in Japan.
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sorry still dont get it all
I quote from the spec;
Start mode Zero start 0 assistance to power;
thats the Black star with no gears

" start Mode Non zero start, 1:1 assistance power.
That's the silverado bike with 6 gears.

BTWay Foned bike shop who were "just about to phone you back" to ask about possible gears on the Blackstar, informed the next batch of Black Star will be fitted with gears'possibly'..probably due to England having more hills than SOME places abroad. (I was amazed how flat Switzerland was in places, well where the roads were)

 

[flecc]

I'm a bit baffled by that, but think they mean the first has a 3 wire controller which requires the bike to be pedalled off the mark for one or two turns of the pedals for the power to cut in.

By the same token, they may mean the second has assistance equal to the rider effort from a standstill, but i can't be sure of either of these with that mumbo-jumbo.

Re: Switzerland. It's amusing how people refer to the Alps to indicate something steep, since throughout the Alps in all countries the gradients are quite gentle, rarely more than 7 to 10% and often less. Of course that's largely down to the quality of their road engineering, unlike here where we've historically done as the Romans did, go straight over anything in the way, only finally changing that with our motorways.
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[bode]

Thanks, and...

Thanks, homeoz, for the very useful benefit of your experience with the Dahon. It doesn't really sound as if it would be suitable for Bath, nice though it is.

And thanks too to flecc for your remarks, and helpful advice, as always. I have a largeish boot (Mondeo), so would probably get 2 of most folders in somehow. If you get a moment, could you possibly have a look at these specs for the two GreenEdge bikes and tell me if you think they sound as if they might be Bath-friendly?
Silverado:
Electric Bike Sales - GreenEdge Silverado
Blackstar:
Electric Bike Sales - GreenEdge Blackstar ...especially if they were to introduce a geared version.

Any guidance gratefully received!

 

[flecc]

You'll know what I mean when I say that Bath and e-bike friendly don't go together.

The Blackstar is out due to it's lack of rider gears, and there is already a geared version, the Silverado being effectively almost the same bike/motor/battery.

The Silverado looks possible, but I cannot say for certain without knowing more of it's motor and battery. As an e-bike, it's very close to being a Quando with gears, the Holy Grail for many, but only if the motor is very similar in power and torque. The hub motor's internal gearing is likely to be a fraction lower than the Quando's, a benefit for Bath, and the rider gears will inevitably be on the low side also, judging from the chainwheel, again a benefit in that area.

The Quando's motor has a peak gross power of 576 watts, and if the Silverado has anything over 450 watts gross which is very likely, it will certainly be viable in Bath with a moderately fit rider. By that I mean not high muscle power but the ability to maintain a moderate output over time. Almost anyone can output very high pedal powers briefly, but what long steep hills need is the ability to maintain more moderate levels for as long as the hill lasts without it being exhausting. In other words, endurance rather than outright strength.

The possible downside is if the battery is not up to the job of delivering high current during long climbs, something which has plagued some other powerful bikes, chiefly eZee and to a small extent the earlier Wisper. They have solved their battery cutting out and short life problems with new design very high quality batteries, but with these bikes we have no information, and I'd at least like to know which battery manufacturer makes that battery to even start making a judgment on that.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but with this sort of terrain there's much more risk of something not being up to the job. Choosing an e-bike in flatter areas is so much easier, since almost anything does the job.
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[oldosc]

The Blackstar is out due to it's lack of rider gears, and there is already a geared version, the Silverado being effectively almost the same bike/motor/battery.

No one at the bike shopcan enlighten me as to weather the silverado can take a the bigger battery of the blackstar,do you think the 10ah battery of the blackstar is to compensate for the lack of gears.and would this make it a better bike.
also what could possibly stop a derallier(sic) being fitted to the back wheel of the Blackstar, giving gears a 10ah battery, and a £100 bonus (less the change set, but that needent be £100)

 

[flecc]

The Blackstar is out due to it's lack of rider gears, and there is already a geared version, the Silverado being effectively almost the same bike/motor/battery.

No one at the bike shopcan enlighten me as to weather the silverado can take a the bigger battery of the blackstar,do you think the 10ah battery of the blackstar is to compensate for the lack of gears.and would this make it a better bike.
also what could possibly stop a derallier(sic) being fitted to the back wheel of the Blackstar, giving gears a 10ah battery, and a £100 bonus (less the change set, but that needent be £100)

I think it's unlikely that the batteries would be swappable since they'd market with the 10 Ah on both for the selling advantage. Fitting a derailleur is usually out of the question since the frame isn't wide enough on the single speed and thinwall alloy tubing isn't readily bendable. To put gears on the Quando I had to make some drastic alterations, well beyond what would normally be done commercially.

The price difference would be negligible after buying the derailleur parts which would add up to at least half the £100, using the cheapest items, and the extra bits and pieces cost me almost £60 above.

Bikes like these, marketed with little information and almost certainly no chance of buying replacement batteries are a very poor prospect in general. When at £300 the risk might be acceptable, but at £800 for the only viable one in a hilly area, the Silverado is probably a risk few would knowingly take.

The chances of that bike still being on the market in two years time when the present battery could be finished are very small, judging from the history of the huge number of other names and designs which have popped up, only to disappear within months.
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[bode]

Thanks, but oh dear!

Thanks for your helpful observations, flecc. Now I'm really at a loss!

Maybe I should just wait and see about the new range of Powabykes (including a folder that Frank Curran told me should be available by next year). At least they have the advantage of being based in Bath.

 

[oldosc]

Thanks for your helpful observations, flecc. Now I'm really at a loss!

same here, the only solution I can think of is to trade in the wife for a taller model.Then we can both get Kalkhoff's

 

[flecc]

Bode, at least with Powabyke you have a lasting company with sound products, a deserved reputation for good service, and a dealer network.

Oldosc, Kalkhoff do make a 45 cm, so two could be bought.
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[Ayrshire Jim]

Hope this isn't considered borderline necrophilia....
Take on board comments re: too new to tell yet - the problem I'm having is cycle2work makes this a 448 quid punt not 800 (Blackstar). Which seems more like it.

In a nutshell I'm a lazy b who drives to work, well as far as up to where parking meters start and walks the rest. An ebike = not arriving all hot and bothered, as usually I'm late. At the quoted four hundred recharges, the Blackstar battery will last me for 7.6 years.

If someone here wouldn't mind explaining how wrong my logic is on the Blackstar, cos it makes sense to me otherwise at the moment. Assuming I've got it backwards, plan B is - I can buy a very nice Brompton with all the tricks (without the cute titanium bottom option of course), for the same kind of money....

ta
AJ

 

[eddieo]

Just a thought ... But I have a couple of Dahon 20 inch folders. Would it be possible to get electric kits for these? just called CH White and they don't convert customers bikes.

One is a Jetstream with front and rear suspension, the other a shopper style Helios, both light weight at approx 11-12 kg and in as new condition.....

If possible, it may be a practical introduction to electric bikes for us.....

 

[flecc]

Hope this isn't considered borderline necrophilia....
Take on board comments re: too new to tell yet - the problem I'm having is cycle2work makes this a 448 quid punt not 800 (Blackstar). Which seems more like it.

In a nutshell I'm a lazy b who drives to work, well as far as up to where parking meters start and walks the rest. An ebike = not arriving all hot and bothered, as usually I'm late. At the quoted four hundred recharges, the Blackstar battery will last me for 7.6 years.

If someone here wouldn't mind explaining how wrong my logic is on the Blackstar, cos it makes sense to me otherwise at the moment. Assuming I've got it backwards, plan B is - I can buy a very nice Brompton with all the tricks (without the cute titanium bottom option of course), for the same kind of money....

ta
AJ

You wouldn't make a lithium ion battery last 7.6 years since they age regardless of used or not. A two year life is quite normal though you might with luck get three years doing short journeys, which yours seems to be.

One possible problem is battery availability in two or three years time, since bikes like these appear and disappear again with monotonous regularity, only the major brands staying around for as few years.

I'd strongly recommend the Wisper 805, not because it's necessarily a better bike, but because Wisper are well established now, are known to give good support and also have a few local dealers as well. The 20" wheel version is the better bet for cycling quality, 16" wheels nothing like as good for the cycling part. Here's a link to see it:

Wisper 805

Click the specification link on the right of that page and you'll be able to see the 20" wheel version.
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[flecc]

Just a thought ... But I have a couple of Dahon 20 inch folders. Would it be possible to get electric kits for these? just called CH White and they don't convert customers bikes.

One is a Jetstream with front and rear suspension, the other a shopper style Helios, both light weight at approx 11-12 kg and in as new condition.....

If possible, it may be a practical introduction to electric bikes for us.....

The problem is usually the front fork width at the hub, usually 75mm or thereabouts on folders. Hub motors are usually a minimum of 100 to 110 mm width, so specially modified forks are necessary.
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[eddieo]

The problem is usually the front fork width at the hub, usually 75mm or thereabouts on folders. Hub motors are usually a minimum of 100 to 110 mm width, so specially modified forks are necessary.
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But is there a kit or someone who could retro fit a system.... I guess not from your advice.