Hi! Looking for Fiido D21 alternative

[ovatsus]

Hi,

I currently own a 20'' Tern Verge P10, and wanted to upgrade to an electric bike to help with hills and wind.
I don't want anything with 16'' wheels, and I've put 17.5kg as the max weight so it's not significantly heavier than my current bike, so after researching online I more or less decided on the Fiido D21 or Fido X (if I can confirm it's actually 17.5kg, some sites say it is, others say it's 19.2kg).
However, even though there are plenty of shops in the UK that sell Fiido, I can't find any that works with the Green Commute Initiative scheme, so I'm considering other options that I found in shops that do work with the scheme:

* Estari E20 - Being a little bit more expensive and smaller battery doesn't bother me, but I'm concerned about that cable under the bike getting stuck somewhere. https://www.estarli.co.uk/products/e20?variant=41145065406658
* Morfuns EOLE S - It's lighter which is nice, but it's quite a lot more expensive and has the same smaller batter and cable problem as the Estari - https://velorution.com/electric-bikes/morfuns-eole-s-folding-electric-bike.html
* Carbo Model S - very similar to the Morfuns, but can't find any review online, only of the single speed Model X version - https://velorution.com/electric-bikes/carbo-model-s-folding-electric-bike-includes-mudguards-and-lights.html

Anyone has experience with any of those 3? Or have any other suggestion for a different bike?

Thanks in advance!

 

[cyclebuddy]

...I've put 17.5kg as the max weight so it's not significantly heavier than my current bike, so after researching online I more or less decided on the Fiido D21 or Fido X (if I can confirm it's actually 17.5kg, some sites say it is, others say it's 19.2kg).
However, even though there are plenty of shops in the UK that sell Fiido, I can't find any that works with the Green Commute Initiative scheme...

The Fiido D21 weighs 17.5kg (smooth-welded ali frame, lightweight Xiongda motor), the X is 19.2kg (cast ali frame, heavier Aikema motor, hydraulic brakes). Both use Torque sensors, which give a quite different riding experience to cheaper Cadence sensors of the other bikes you cite*. There are only three official sources for Fiido bikes in England - Wigan, East London, or direct from Fiido. AFAIK none offer CTW schemes, but PP and Klarna are possible.

The Mycle is identical to the Estarli - the Mycle is cheaper but has a smaller battery still. Both use the cheaper Cadence sensor, as IIRC does Morfuns (light-weight Carbon frame).

All of these bikes are a mixed bag of strengths and weaknesses, the only commonality being 20" wheels and foldable. How power is applied (cadence vs torque), brakes (Mech disc vs Hydraulic), gearing etc etc will make each feel and ride quite differently. You need to try at least a few out to see which suits you best rather than randomly plucking a few "nice-looking-bikes" off the web with specs that seem similar. Weight also is less relevant once you have powered assist, unless you physically need to lift or carry the bike.

The other option, seeing as you already own a pretty decent Tern, might be to just add a kit - Swytch or something better?

* Some here say that bikes that use a Torque sensor to gauge how power is applied will give a more "natural" riding experience than Cadence sensor bikes, although some others here disagree with that view (forum politics)! Ideally you'll try both and form your own opinion.

 

[ovatsus]

The Fiido D21 weighs 17.5kg (smooth-welded ali frame, lightweight Xiongda motor), the X is 19.2kg (cast ali frame, heavier Aikema motor, hydraulic brakes). Both use Torque sensors, which give a quite different riding experience to cheaper Cadence sensors of the other bikes you cite*. There are only three official sources for Fiido bikes in England - Wigan, East London, or direct from Fiido. AFAIK none offer CTW schemes, but PP and Klarna are possible.

The Mycle is identical to the Estarli - the Mycle is cheaper but has a smaller battery still. Both use the cheaper Cadence sensor, as IIRC does Morfuns (light-weight Carbon frame).

All of these bikes are a mixed bag of strengths and weaknesses, the only commonality being 20" wheels and foldable. How power is applied (cadence vs torque), brakes (Mech disc vs Hydraulic), gearing etc etc will make each feel and ride quite differently. You need to try at least a few out to see which suits you best rather than randomly plucking a few "nice-looking-bikes" off the web with specs that seem similar. Weight also is less relevant once you have powered assist, unless you physically need to lift or carry the bike.

* Some here say that bikes that use a Torque sensor to gauge how power is applied will give a more "natural" riding experience than Cadence sensor bikes, although some others here disagree with that view (forum politics)! Ideally you'll try both and form your own opinion.

I'm trying out the 3 of them this week. My understanding was that the Estarli got upgraded recently to have a proper torque sensor

 

[ovatsus]

@cyclebuddy you say here that the KT system used in Mycle and Estarli is a slightly nicer ride than the Fiido, did I get that right? - https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/estarli-e20-pro.43098/

 

[cyclebuddy]

I'm trying out the 3 of them this week. My understanding was that the Estarli got upgraded recently to have a proper torque sensor

Ah, okay, we live and learn.

I have a Fiido D11 which is the Cadence sensor version of the D21. While I have Torque and RPM sensors on 2 other e-bikes, the D11 with it's cheaper cadence sensor IMHO I find preferable for commuting.

If you have the chance, try out the Estarli both with Cadence and Torque sensors for a direct comparison.

...you say here that the KT system used in Mycle and Estarli is a slightly nicer ride than the Fiido, did I get that right? - https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/estarli-e20-pro.43098/

Yes, but a KT controller is for Cadence sensor bikes. It's preferred by many members here for it's current control rather than speed capping. It's about the way the bike applies power. On the cadence D11 it's similar, but not quite as well implemented. Torque sensors on the other hand gauge power by how much pressure you apply to the pedals; it's a totally different method/riding experience. A member here who has owned both Fiido X and D21 suggests the D21 is not quite as nice a Torque system as that utilised on the X.

 

[ovatsus]

Ah, okay, we live and learn.

I have a Fiido D11 which is the Cadence sensor version of the D21. While I have Torque and RPM sensors on 2 other e-bikes, the D11 with it's cheaper cadence sensor IMHO I find preferable for commuting.

If you have the chance, try out the Estarli both with Cadence and Torque sensors for a direct comparison.


Yes, but a KT controller is for Cadence sensor bikes. It's preferred by many members here for it's current control rather than speed capping. It's about the way the bike applies power. On the cadence D11 it's similar, but not quite as well implemented. Torque sensors on the other hand gauge power by how much pressure you apply to the pedals; it's a totally different method/riding experience. A member here who has owned both Fiido X and D21 suggests the D21 is not quite as nice a Torque system as that utilised on the X.

I see. Ideally I wanted the D21, but I really want to use the cycle to work scheme. The Morfuns and the Carbo are overpriced I think. I'm going to try them, but I think in the end it's probably going to be the Estarli. They don't have two models, they just updated to Torque sensors on the new versions they are selling now (I think, the info is all very vague)

 

[cyclebuddy]

Just having had a look at Estarli's website, in the e20 video they're talking about motor torque (i.e. they've increased the grunt), which is a totally different thing to having a torque sensor fitted as the D21 has.

Very odd that they tell you very little about specifications for the bike and what it's actually fitted with.

 

[ovatsus]

Just having had a look at Estarli's website, in the e20 video they're talking about motor torque (i.e. they've increased the grunt), which is a totally different thing to having a torque sensor fitted as the D21 has.

Very odd that they tell you very little about specifications for the bike and what it's actually fitted with.

After contacting them over email I got a little bit more details:

* It's indeed a a cadence sensor
* 36v rear hub motor with 40 nm of torque
* 7.2amp battery
* Shimano Tourney 7x speed shifter
* The disc brakes are from Tektro
* 48T crankset
* 14-28T cassette

 

[Woosh]

Hi,

I currently own a 20'' Tern Verge P10, and wanted to upgrade to an electric bike to help with hills and wind.
I don't want anything with 16'' wheels, and I've put 17.5kg as the max weight so it's not significantly heavier than my current bike, so after researching online I more or less decided on the Fiido D21 or Fido X (if I can confirm it's actually 17.5kg, some sites say it is, others say it's 19.2kg).
However, even though there are plenty of shops in the UK that sell Fiido, I can't find any that works with the Green Commute Initiative scheme, so I'm considering other options that I found in shops that do work with the scheme:

* Estari E20 - Being a little bit more expensive and smaller battery doesn't bother me, but I'm concerned about that cable under the bike getting stuck somewhere. https://www.estarli.co.uk/products/e20?variant=41145065406658
* Morfuns EOLE S - It's lighter which is nice, but it's quite a lot more expensive and has the same smaller batter and cable problem as the Estari - https://velorution.com/electric-bikes/morfuns-eole-s-folding-electric-bike.html
* Carbo Model S - very similar to the Morfuns, but can't find any review online, only of the single speed Model X version - https://velorution.com/electric-bikes/carbo-model-s-folding-electric-bike-includes-mudguards-and-lights.html

Anyone has experience with any of those 3? Or have any other suggestion for a different bike?

Thanks in advance!

After contacting them over email I got a little bit more details:

* It's indeed a a cadence sensor
* 36v rear hub motor with 40 nm of torque
* 7.2amp battery
* Shimano Tourney 7x speed shifter
* The disc brakes are from Tektro
* 48T crankset
* 14-28T cassette

check out the woosh Rambletta. You have choice of 12AH or 10.5AH battery and 8-speed 11T-28T.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?rambletta

We also accept green commute initiative scheme.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?cycletowork

 

[ovatsus]

Fiido.ie accepts cycle to work schemes in Ireland and I was told they will open an UK shop around March or April and will accept UK cycle to work schemes!

 

[ovatsus]

Also, did a test ride of the Estarli E20 and while it's not bad, decided against it because it feels like a big downgrade from my current Tern. I like to cycle in an uprightish position, but the Estarli seat to handlebars distance is way too short, I feel too upright. Also didn't like the gear shifting, and the breaks are super squeaky. Would be fine if I was paying decathlon prices, but this 1410£, I'd rather pay a bit more and get something nicer. I'm testing the Carbo and Morfuns next week, if I like either of them maybe I'll wait out on a deal to find it a cheaper price, or go with the Fiido once I can get it with GCI vouchers.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Fiido.ie accepts cycle to work schemes in Ireland and I was told they will open an UK shop around March or April and will accept UK cycle to work schemes!

Fiido Ireland and the few retailers there are all centred in Dublin... i.e. the EU and supplied from Poland*, without UK VAT and Import tax being added (At Brexit, Fiido initially charged an extra 20%, then 8%, then dropped the VAT/import charges altogether for bikes imported into the UK, but those extra costs must still be being absorbed somewhere).

I'd wondered about Fiido opening a UK shop. Maybe half-a-dozen UK "authorised resellers" have come and gone in just the last year or so. In this thread I drew attention to the fact Fiido plan to introduce another 7 models shortly... and note they quote "MRSP" and "Retailer prices may vary". That does suggest Fiido may be changing their business model, and rather than banking on a D2C model, there'll be retailers who can work and make enough money to remain in business. So that hints at good news I think.

*At least they were, as were all bikes bought in the UK before Brexit

Also, did a test ride of the Estarli E20 and while it's not bad, decided against it because it feels like a big downgrade from my current Tern.

I think your best bet might be to investigate putting a motor kit onto your Tern. Any e-bike that costs in total the same as your "Analogue" Tern isn't going to be a match from a quality or fitment point of view. On an e-bike where the electrics (motor, battery, control system) are a big element of that total cost, the basic bike sans electrics is naturally going to be a much cheaper affair.

 

[ovatsus]

Ended up getting a Tern Link D7i for £658 with the GCI voucher and now on the queue for the Swytch conversion kit being back in stock

 

[guerney]

Ended up getting a Tern Link D7i for £658 with the GCI voucher and now on the queue for the Swytch conversion kit being back in stock

Because you already had a Tern, I wasn't going to mention Tern's apparent propensity toward producing folding bikes which snap in half, but now that you've bought another one, I'm wondering if I should have.

I recall some on this forum somewhere sometime reporting that Swytch kits provide too much power when assisting, and there isn't much by way of adjustment which can be made to address that, or much else for that matter... in sharp contrast to Bafang's BBSXX(X) line, and some other conversion kits, some of which can be extensively tuned to varying degrees, to suit you.

This one isn't even a ebike. Perhaps the water bottle was the final straw...

...neither is this:

Numerous other reports can be found all over the internet:


https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingbikes/comments/hsclhk

Someone's Tern handlebar broke too, painful consequences here:

Tern Vektron S10 gen3

Have not posted for a while. Upgraded one of my Kalkhoffs to an S10 Tern a year ago and the little bike has been brilliant, much more oomph than the kalkhoff. I did it because of the increasing difficulty in taking a full size bike on the train down here. All was well until Thursday evening...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

You couldn't pay me to ride a Tern - I'm sticking with Dahon.

 

[ovatsus]

Yes, I've heard reports of that before

 

[Nealh]

One of the worst Tern snaps I read was from a female rider, alaong with her other half they had been holidaying biking in France. Having ridden down a steepish hill they stop for breather and refreshment , upon stopping her tern simply snapped from underneath her.

 

[ovatsus]

Yes, it is a bit worrying, but at the same time I think there are more reports of that from Tern because after the Brompton they're the most popular brand? Also in London any store that has foldables have Brompton and Tern, but Dahon, Birdy or Airnimal are really really hard to find.

My first foldable was actually an old model of the Dahon Helios I got on eBay, but the ride was a bit stiff. I was still sold on the concept, so I sold it and got a Verge P18 and a Verge P20 for me and my wife on eBay, and we loved them. So what I decided is, every year, replace one of them with a new model using the cycle to work scheme, and then sell the old one, so we have fresh bikes, and less chance of problems. Last year I replaced the P18 with the newer P10 and I think I spent around 200£ to do the upgrade, so totally worth it. So now looking into replacing the P20. I tried out the Morfuns and the Carbo, they are better than the Estarli, but don't justify the extra price tag, so went back to the Tern which to me has the more comfortable ride. The Verge S8i was really nice, but too expensive, so I think the Link D7i was a very good deal, still has the internal hub like the S8i which is nice. Next year I'll probably replace the P10 and then the year after the D7i, so we're only keeping each of them for 2 years.

As for electrifying the D7i, I'm open to alternatives to the Swytch. We will only turn on the pedal assist on the lower level occasionally, so don't need big range, preference is for lightness, so the Swytch seems appealing

 

[guerney]

Yes, it is a bit worrying, but at the same time I think there are more reports of that from Tern because after the Brompton they're the most popular brand?

Worldwide, I believe Dahon make more folding bikes than both. The guy I buy Dahon spare parts from (one of the only shops in the UK that do), told me he regularly has frame issues with the Tern bikes he sells, but this happens a lot less with Dahons... and almost none when Dahons have the "Rebar" ie the reinforcement bar over the mid-frame hinge.. such as the:

My first foldable was actually an old model of the Dahon Helios I got on eBay, but the ride was a bit stiff.

My Bafang 250W BBS01B conversion is the 2006 Helios P8 (has a rebar), and on it's original tyres, it was a harsh ride... not so with 1.75" wide Marathon Plus. I like it - almost rides like an actual bike, apart from it's 20" wheeled squirreliness. I've even done a few small jumps, hasn't snapped yet.

World Wheels - The No 1 internet source for Dahon Folding Bikes in UK and EU

World Wheels: Online Retailer of Dahon folding bicycles. We carry Dahon's complete line of portable folding bicycles and folding bike accessories.

www.cyclemotion.co.uk

 

[guerney]

One of the worst Tern snaps I read was from a female rider, alaong with her other half they had been holidaying biking in France. Having ridden down a steepish hill they stop for breather and refreshment , upon stopping her tern simply snapped from underneath her.

Mine's an aluminium frame, so despite it being a Dahon, it's age will someday necessitate a conversion transfer to... a newer Dahon. Or a brand new frame of the same type - weirdly those do crop up.

 

[ovatsus]

So the Swytch kits are taking a very long time to deliver (unless I pay even more, annoying business model), so I ended up selling the Tern Link D7i on gumtree and got a Fiido D21.

It arrived today. Did just a short cycle around my area, rides well both with assist on and off. The brakes came swapped, so need to fix them before doing a longer cycle. I got it from electrochains which is an UK shop, so wasn't expecting that.

The default handlebars and seat are actually no too bad, I expected I would have to replace them, but I might actually hold off on upgrading them for now. Mudguards were included, which is nice, some youtube videos said it came with them, but on the Fiido website only the D11 is listed as including them out of the box. Still need to get some folding pedals and figure out a compatible rack.

Only annoying thing of the bike is that it doesn't have the standard bottle cage screws in the frame that you can use for lock holder, so need to figure out a different way to attach the foldylock, though I already knew that. Interesting enough, the frame has a Dahon sticker