How much have electric bikes improved?

[Davall]

Hi there, new poster, and what an informative site this is! I'm impressed with the quality of advice I've read here.

I bought my one and only electric bike, a hefty 33kg beast called a Davall Electra (based on a Sturmey Archer three speed Marlborough gents cycle), way back in 1987, well before e-biking got "popular" , but quite frankly it was pretty useless at hill-climbing, which was its main purpose in life here in the Chiltern Hills. Faced with anything remotely steep, the motor would quickly bog down and cut out, with me not being powerful enough to keep it in its sweet zone. Consequently I pretty much gave up and turned to motorcycling instead, and it languishes unloved in my garage to this day.

Reading this forum has convinced me that the only viable hill climbers are likely to be the Panasonic crank drives, particularly (please correct me if I'm wrong here) for a middle-aged 17st rider of less than average fitness....

I've always loved two wheels and my quest is to try to get more exercise on a bike in order to shed some weight, but some of the hills round here are quite daunting for my road bikes, thus limiting the range of destinations available. One of today's better electric bikes might just improve things and encourage me out on a few more jaunts and a bit further afield, which has to be a good thing.

My first question is really this I suppose. Will today's Panasonics be much of an improvement over yesteryear's disappointing foray into electric assistance? I keep reading the Panasonics will "climb any hill", but is that likely to be true of a 17st rider who is only willing or able to exert (say) 100 watts of his own, or maybe 150? I don't mind if the uphill ride is dead slow, as long as the motor keeps going and doesn't bog down. So, what are these units like at this kind of limit? Is there a cadence in bottom gear below which they just won't operate any more?

I'm a great believer in ultra low gears, so as never to have to get out of the saddle. Having geared my road bikes (tourer, hybrid and MTB) all to a 19" or so bottom gear, I can achieve a good seated cadence up most inclines, but have reached an age (and weight) where some assistance would now be appreciated. The hub geared Panasonics seem pretty good with a low gear around the 25" mark and options to adjust the rear sprocket size, but I do wonder about the typical 37" bottom gear on the derailleur equipped machines. That seems a bit on the high side for me, even with assistance. Would I be able to keep that spinning on a 1 in 5 hill do you think?

One final question which intrigues me. On my old agricultural Davall, the power was either on or off. It consisted of a button which had to be held in by thumb. On today's hub e-bikes, is the throttle a gradual affair, like a motor cycle, feeding in power according to the degree of twist? Doubt I'll be buying one of these in any case, but just interested...

Sorry for rambling on.....any advice from you experienced guys would be very much appreciated, thanks!

 

[Fecn]

Yes - the panasonic crank motor bikes really will climb any hill (almost) - There are a few gravelly paths I ride on where the back wheel looses traction before I loose the ability to stop pedalling. There's also a very steep tarmac hill I can't climb due to the fact that I end up pulling wheelies when I try to pedal - That one is particularly steep though.. over 30 degrees incline (I wouldn't be surprised if it's 45 degrees in places).. It's the basic laws of physics which cause the hill climbing problems, rather than any lack of ability for the motor to turn the wheels.

In addition to my Panasonic/Kalkhoff bike, I also have an old chinese lead-acid battery bike which I was given for free - That can't climb any hills whatsoever and is a heavy lump to pedal when the battery runs out (after about 8 miles). The difference when compared to a modern well made bike is staggering. The current crop of LiIon powered bikes are so far removed from the old generation of bikes, its like comparing steam-powered cars with a V6 petrol.

And yes... pretty much everything which uses a throttle control will apply the power progressively.

For the record, I'm Just over 6ft and nearly 14 stone - However, I tend to do a lot of riding with my 3-year old daughter on a seat behind me, and between the two of us, we're easily over 17 stone - The Panasonic system does extremely well with our combined weight.

 

[Mussels]

Last year I was over 15 stone, middle aged and unfit. I got a Wisper with a hub motor so I could ride the 40 mile round trip 5 days a week (sometimes 7). There are a few nasty hills on my trip and I can get away with suprisingly little effort if I want, I didn't notice this for ages as I pedal quite hard as well most of the time. One day I had a broken chain link and could only pedal very lightly, I still got up a 1 in 4 hill* OK using less pressure on the pedals than I would use on the flat.
Flecc write a good post on this a while back explaining why hub motors are better on hills than most people realise. On paper chain drive looks much better but add a person to the bike and it changes everything.

The point of this is that the panasonic units only work at a low cadence which goes against the riding style you describe, it is very important you do test rides first.

* I think it's 1 in 4, only fit cyclists attempt it and most that I overtake are doing about 5mph. It's Shooters Hill if anyone is familiar with it, there is a pub there called the Anchor because carriage drivers used to drag anchors behind them when going down the hill.

 

[flecc]

The problem with all the early e-bikes was their strict compliance with the law, since they only had up to the legal 200 watts limit and were, as you say, useless on hills. Over the years considerable licence has been taken with design accompanied by various (invalid) excuses, the upshot of which being that e-bikes typically have around 400 watts of power available for long term use, some models up to 700 watts.

The Panasonic has a maximum available of 420 watts and is a revelation against your old Davall, particularly if switched to high power mode on a hill.

However, the power delivery is only at maximum up to a slow 39 cadence, gradually reducing from then and disappearing at a cadence of 65, and the power you get also depends on the amount of your input on the torque sensor. Despite those, they will climb anything with just about any rider as Fecn says, but the rider's overall input is higher than on most hub motor bikes.

The more powerful hub motor bikes need very little input from the rider on the flat and gentle slopes and will handle moderate slopes faster than the Panasonic type. It's on steeper hills from 12% upwards that the position reverses, the hub motor bike needing higher input from the rider where the Panasonic type can stay much the same for the rider going down through the gears and reducing road speed.

Given all these differences, it's important to try both types before you commit yourself. Both types will open your eyes with their capabilities, but some things might not suit like the low cadences of the Panasonic unit or the reducing ability of hub motors as road speed reduces when climbing.
.

 

[Davall]

Some really informative replies there, and many thanks to all three for your advice.

My sole reason for purchase would be to improve my fitness and lose some weight. Much as I'd really love to cycle to work, 20 miles each way is just too far for comfort, so commuting time is not a factor. I'm looking for comfort and hill-climbing above speed (if I need speed, I'll use the motorbike!). That leaves riding only for pleasure and the more pleasurable, the more likely to be used, the more weight loss -- that's my theory anyway!

That seems to argue against the throttle bikes and more towards the Panasonic styles where the rider has to keep on working at all times. Is that a fair assessment?

On the bikes with progressive throttles, as described by Fecn, is it possible to finely balance the amount of motor assistance provided? I'm thinking if I want a good work out and only want a small dose of electric assistance in relation to human input for part of the journey, is the throttle usually sensitive enough to offer that, or does it tend to run away with you? I'm only used to the "all or nothing" effect of a simple on/off switch with my old e-bike, so wonder how sensitive these throttles can be in practice. From reading various articles, I'm getting the impression that most riders probably just crank them fully open and let the bike do the lion's share of the work all of the time (i.e. more like an on/off switch in practice), is that the case?

I'm really drawn towards the quality and abilities of a Tasman or Agattu but trying to justify to myself why I shouldn't just save hundreds of pounds and go for an Alien Gents Special II instead

I accept there's no substitute for actually trying these out, but let's face it, it's not like buying a car where there's a dealer in every town! Some of these dealers are in different countries (Edinburgh, Presteigne,....)

Again, any comments and advice most welcomed please.

 

[themutiny]

I would definitely urge you to try both types. I got into e-biking via the original Torq1 (derestricted). In derestricted form it flies along, and this in turn gave me more motivation to pedal. As I lost weight, I could go faster and faster which in itself was motivating. THen I started to enjoy the challenge that hills represented. A hub motor is not necessarily disadvantaged by steep hills, but the rider has to be fairly strong. I can get up 1 in 7s at a fair lick now, whereas once a 1 in 10 would be too much.

I did a ride with a guy who had the Panasonic system, and at one point we swapped bikes. It lasted about 5 minutes. He was as unhappy with a hub bike as I was with his system. It really is horses for courses. I would urge you not to discount the powerful hub designs - eg Wisper/Ezee. I think they're more 'fun' than the crank designs, and it's the 'fun' factor that keeps you doing it. It's exercise, but not as we know it!

 

[flecc]

I would urge you not to discount the powerful hub designs - eg Wisper/Ezee. I think they're more 'fun' than the crank designs, and it's the 'fun' factor that keeps you doing it. It's exercise, but not as we know it!

From owning both types long term I agree on the fun factor. The Panasonic type systems make great utility bikes for local travelling, shopping etc, but the powerful hub motor types have more flexibility in the ways they can be used.
.

 

[Davall]

Thanks for both responses above. I've now realised there are a few more retailers around than I'd first thought, so opportunities to try both don't necessarily mean having to drive the length & breadth of the country...

Will take your advice and try both types. Thanks again.

 

[Straylight]

On the bikes with progressive throttles, as described by Fecn, is it possible to finely balance the amount of motor assistance provided? I'm thinking if I want a good work out and only want a small dose of electric assistance in relation to human input for part of the journey, is the throttle usually sensitive enough to offer that, or does it tend to run away with you? I'm only used to the "all or nothing" effect of a simple on/off switch with my old e-bike, so wonder how sensitive these throttles can be in practice. From reading various articles, I'm getting the impression that most riders probably just crank them fully open and let the bike do the lion's share of the work all of the time (i.e. more like an on/off switch in practice), is that the case?

With practice it's possible to use a twist throttle with sesitivity, but as you say the temptation is to simply hold it fully open all the time. I find myself feathering the throttle particularly when setting of in order to not stress the battery too much, and when trundling up to traffic lights etc, when the surge of full power would be inappropriate. On my wisper, the high/low pedelec settings are useful as well, I generally ride in low, using the throttle as required, so as to have full manual control over the motor, but I do use high as a kind of uphill cruise control, as the throttle is harder to modulate when standing up on the pedals with more weight over the handlebars.

 

[monster]

i all the legal bike will strugle with hills. you need at least a 1k to go up most hills at any speed. commercial bikes are usually under 250w

 

[bode]

I have put a switch into the pedelec sensor circuit on my bike, so now I can select between various modes: pedalling only, pedelec, pedalling with throttle assistance, or throttle only.

I think the one I use most often is with the pedelec off, and feathering the throttle to provide just the amount of assistance to the pedals that seem appropriate at the time. I must admit, though, that it can be a bit of a nuisance sometimes holding the throttle in just the right position for extended periods; that is usually my cue to switch back to pedelec mode for a more carefree ride!

 

[wurly]

I am not sure if you really do need all that power to go up a steep hill. It might seem like a strange comment. I guess it is down to how much effort the rider inputs. 1kw for speed yes, but i've found my 250watt hub motor will assist me on virtually any hill. If i can keep the bike moving at 5mph (which i know is slow for the motor) and keep the motor effort steady(this is the key point) then both of you will get the bike and rider up that hill.
I have tried this and we have some daunting hills around here.
I can select the level of assistance from my current limiter (say 6A power consumption)and don't have to concentrate on holding the throttle in the right place, just open it flat out, let the electronics do that and concentrate on pedalling........

 

[flecc]

i all the legal bike will strugle with hills. you need at least a 1k to go up most hills at any speed. commercial bikes are usually under 250w

The 250 watts is nominal for legal purposes though, only two e-bikes currently on our market having that low a net maximum power. For example, the 250 watt rated eZee Quando actually churns out a maximum net power of 560 watts (gross 700 watts) and performs on one of the current batteries like this without any pedalling:

7% hill at 13 mph

10% hill at 10 mph

12% hill at 9 mph

14% hill at 8.5 mph

with my fully dressed weight of 10.5 stones. In fact with that weight it's capable of taking off unassisted from a standstill on a 14% (1 in 7). Pedal assisted by 73 year old me it will easily take off from a standstill on a 22% (1 in 4.5) hill as two forum members have witnessed.

The average net maximum power of most e-bikes is around 400 watts and hills of 10% are well within their capabilities with moderate weight riders. Of course with riders of more like 15 to 20 stones the performance reduces drastically as it would with any very low powered vehicle.
.

 

[Davall]

Tried both types now!

Well, I struck lucky yesterday and then some.

Just as I was figuring out how it would ever be possible to compare a good hub driven bike and a Panasonic hub-geared bike on the same roads, I spotted this eBay auction for a Wisper 905 SE City, only a few miles from me.

Wisper Works 905 SE CITY Electric Bike - USED ONCE on eBay (end time 01-Nov-09 20:30:26 GMT)

I contacted the seller for the demo ride offered and it turns out his other bike mentioned in the advert is.... an Agattu!

Went there today, explained my position and he very kindly let me try out both his bikes. For this generosity, I gave him a donation for the charity he is supporting in his eBay sale. The seller was genuine, the Wisper hadn't done any mileage and he showed me the bill of sale. Sadly I didn't win the auction this evening , but no matter, something else will turn up. Somebody got a bit of a bargain I think. Mind you, rightly or wrongly, I was concerned about any long-term battery damage, having lain unused since July.

I actually liked both bikes, both having their pros and cons. I feel lucky in that I suspect I've probably tried out today the 'Rolls Royce' of each system.

First impressions from one who last owned and rode an electric bike 22 years ago:-

Wisper likes: powerful, smooth, pliant ride (didn't even notice the lack of suspension, despite expecting to), big accommodating and comfortable seat. Hub noise acceptable, not silent but not obtrusive either. Superb stem adjust feature.

Wisper concerns: the chain came off the single chainring twice under load in first gear. Other gears not especially happy either, with the odd chain slip or jumping between cogs evident, a quality concern on what was effectively a new bike. Some wiring looks rather exposed, where there ought to be sheathing at least (and probably sealant). Right hand grip loose and kept working its way towards the bar end.

Great ride though, and I had decided I would give the starting price for it, had there been no bids. Personally I wouldn't pay the massive brand new £1399 RRP for that level of quality though -- I would expect better at that price. Perhaps my standards are too high and I've been spoiled by good quality road bikes and componentry in the past!

Agattu likes: Gave the impression of feeling closer to a normal bicycle dimensions, preferred the rounded handlebars over the straight MTB style of the Wisper, and the handgrips are far nicer to the feel. This bike was a year old and used, yet the overall impression was one of quality. Nice "peace of mind" hub gearchange. The silence of the motor is truly impressive. The pedelec servo function is very sensitive and very clever.

Agattu drawbacks: Didn't feel as powerful as the Wisper and I had to work noticeably harder to climb the hills (steepest around was a long 1 in 12 approx -- the Wisper went up it easier). On more gentle inclines, not much difference between the pair. This "drawback" might actually be a bonus to me, since my objective is to burn calories, without killing myself on the hills. This bike could be the perfect answer for me personally. On steeper hills, I'm led to believe the Agattu would turn the tables. Based on today's test, I remain to be convinced of that, but the situation didn't arise, so it's not fair to comment further.

The power delivery at low cadence was unexpectedly "pulsy" -- no doubt as a function of the torque sensor. I had kind of envisaged the electronics would cleverly smooth that out, so it came as a mild surprise. Not a problem, more an observation. Picking up the cadence a little smoothed things out. It shows the sensitivity of this pedelec's servo design.

Despite the suspension forks and sprung seat post, the ride didn't actually feel any better than the Wisper's, surprisingly. Both felt very good to me. Probably the Wisper's fat and slightly under-inflated tyres were helping it there.


The eBay seller had the choice of which of these two bikes to keep and which to sell. Perhaps unfair to read too much into this, but he sold the Wisper and kept his Kalkhoff.


Final question (sorry about the monster trail here!).

All the Panasonic bikes come out at broadly the same price. However, the same isn't true of the hub designs. The AlienOcean Special II

- Alien Gents "Special" II

looks half decent, appears to have a similar spec to the Wisper (save for lower Ah battery), for much less than half the price. I daresay it would be similarly powerful and ride much the same. Where's the catch?

 

[flecc]

On steeper hills, I'm led to believe the Agattu would turn the tables. Based on today's test, I remain to be convinced of that, but the situation didn't arise, so it's not fair to comment further.

It would to a fair extent. The ability to change the gearing for the motor down sufficiently for the steepest hills means the rider input doesn't have to increase on those. In contrast, the effectively "top gear only" of the hub motor leads to a roll off of power at low speeds on very steep hills so the rider power has to increase proportionally. There's a point of steepness where the hub motor bike becomes much more work and a further point where it is beaten. For example, a 1 in 3 is perfectly viable on the Agattu chain drive, but the hub motor would be completely beaten by that.

The power delivery at low cadence was unexpectedly "pulsy" -- no doubt as a function of the torque sensor. I had kind of envisaged the electronics would cleverly smooth that out, so it came as a mild surprise. Not a problem, more an observation. Picking up the cadence a little smoothed things out. It shows the sensitivity of this pedelec's servo design.

This is deliberate in the Panasonic unit design since the motor is intended to mimic the leg muscles in both stroke and relative power, basically a bionic style muscle multiplier. The greater the rider input on a downstroke, the greater the motor power addition during the stroke so the power accurately retains the characteristics of human cycling. By contrast, hub-motor bikes act like low power motor vehicles.

All the Panasonic bikes come out at broadly the same price. However, the same isn't true of the hub designs. Where's the catch?

The Japanese Panasonic unit is made to very high standards and much more expensive than Chinese products. Since the electrics are a major part of the cost of an e-bike, the bikes using that tend to be at the upper price end and the fact that the bike manufacturers usually make the bikes using it to similarly high standards also contributes to that. Their importing agents also provide a commensurate service which costs.

Hub motor bikes almost all use Chinese made electrics which are available in a wide range of costs from different manufacturers. The importing agents use widely differing support methods, some using low cost internet selling with minimal support and taking small margins. Other makes can be made to higher standards with better components plus far more support and sales through dealers which entails additional profit margins for them with the benefit of more support.

For example, Wisper use the best electrics and are sold only through dedicated dealers and the support from Wisper is impeccable as many owners can vouch, plus the bikes are constantly being developed and improved. By contrast Alien sell only through the internet and have admitted in the past that the motors they send out could be brushless or older brush designs, depending on availability, not very satisfactory in my view. They have also had a very high incidence of failures of their cheap batteries. To be fair they have never hesitated to exchange the failed batteries, but these sort of things are inconvenient to say the least and put off many customers.

I think it's good to have the consumer choice though, either take a risk on saving money or pay to play safe.
.

 

[Davall]

Decision made!

Thanks flecc, and thanks to all for your valuable advice.

Today I have taken the plunge and ordered a Kalkhoff Tasman. The appeal of the hydraulic brakes and stronger wheels over the Agattu was quite compelling. Lloyd will swap the ugly and tricky-to-remove chainguard for the Agattu version for me (unless anyone can suggest a good reason to leave it be?)

In the end I couldn't resist the appeal of German/Japanese engineering quality over something sourced from China, so decided a Kalkhoff it had to be.

For anyone interested, Lloyd at 50cycles tells me the 2010 Kalkhoffs will offer an assistance ratio in 'high' mode of 1 to 1.5, rather than the 1 to 1.3 of most of the current range. I reckon that's worth waiting for, so I won't be getting my new bike for a month, sadly....

 

[Mussels]

In the end I couldn't resist the appeal of German/Japanese engineering quality over something sourced from China, so decided a Kalkhoff it had to be.

I'd be very suprised if a substantial part of a Khalkoff bike doesn't come from China just to be assembled in Germany with Japanese electronics which may also be produced in one of Panasonics Chinese factories.
Doesn't mean there's anything wong with it of course.

 

[flecc]

Doesn't mean there's anything wong with it of course.

Was that spelling an intentional Chinese joke?
.

 

[Davall]

I'd be very suprised if a substantial part of a Khalkoff bike doesn't come from China just to be assembled in Germany with Japanese electronics which may also be produced in one of Panasonics Chinese factories.
Doesn't mean there's anything wong with it of course.

That wasn't lost on me!

EDIT: cross-posted with flecc.

Yes, I suspect you might be right, but I've done a fair bit of research now and satisfied myself that the quality of the frames, motor and workmanship is high and owners never seem to have much in the way of problems. I've hardly seen any reference anywhere to things going wrong with these bikes. Sadly the same doesn't seem to be true of the Ezee/Wispers that I've read about.

My own experience of the brand new Wisper 905 I tested on Sunday was absolutely superb in parts and a bit dire in others. With the one year old Agattu I tested alongside it on the other hand, everything still worked perfectly.

 

[flecc]

I've hardly seen any reference anywhere to things going wrong with these bikes. Sadly the same doesn't seem to be true of the Ezee/Wispers that I've read about.

The Kalkhoffs are very good indeed and right at the top for build quality, but in fairness they have had the odd problem. The chain wrapper/tensioner of their latest Panasonic unit for hub gear use does cause trouble at times through binding, and has to be freed, oiled and correctly adjusted at times, and the 7 speed Shimano hubs suffered a bad batch which led to a small number of early failures on one model. Some early models mudguards suffered breakages too and had to be changed. Nothing to cause any worries at present though other than maintenance of that chain item.
.