How noisy is YOURS?

allen-uk

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 1, 2010
909
25
Most of my recording devices are large and fixed, otherwise I'd ride round the block and then post a clip of my motor.

Trouble is, like many correspondents, I have only ever heard MY motor, so don't really know what it's supposed to sound like!

It is not quiet, and it is noticeable, but I think most people just assume it's an ordinary bike with extra noises.

I suppose I could hang my camera round my neck, put it on 'Movie' mode, and press the button.

Anyway, before I try all that, any comments on your noisy (or otherwise) motors will be interesting.


Allen. (Wisper 905se 2010)
 

z0mb13e

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 28, 2009
578
3
Dorset
Mine makes a fairly quiet whine - loud when under load - though I wouldn't say noisy.

I have noticed a few times recently that it makes weird noises when I am using the throttle and am cycling at or just above the motor speed. Coming off throttle and applying power again, stops it. Very odd...

The motor whine is only really noticeable when cycling in quiet back streets.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
The Suzhou Bafang hub motors tend to make the most noise under load as in acceleration or hill climbing, generally a curious combination of whine and growl. The lower the speed the higher the growl content and vice versa.

At full speed they are generally at their most quiet, just a sort of gentle whine left.

They vary quite a lot, both by model and individual motor, but I don't find any of them objectionable. They are all much quieter than the old Powabyke motor and even the Heinzmann motor.

The Panasonic crank drive units are quieter, but differ by model. The old unit with steel helical gears made a distinctive low level "whoosh" with each pedal downthrust but not particularly noticeable and well below normal road traffic noise levels. The latest nylon geared unit is very quiet, almost silent in most road conditions.

I have an article on motor noise on my website, but that's offline at the moment. I'm therefore copying it below:

All electric motors have an intrinsic physical reason to create noise due to the way in which they work, and the amount varies according to the motor type, it's tolerances, it's revolution rate and the amount of work being done. In the case of Hall effect designs they are potentially a little more noisy than some other types, but any disadvantage of this is outweighed by the power to weight ratio and high efficiency. Conversely, the quietest motors are the alternating current synchronous types like those in fans and fan heaters, but they aren't very powerful for a given weight. Furthermore, the main reason for their quietness is that they run at their constant maximum and technically ideal speed, typically about 1450 rpm. As you know, if you run your bike at maximum speed it's also at it's quietest. How much average noise any one motor puts out depends on tiny variations of tolerances in bearings, gears and controller electronics, the precise alignment of the hub components, and the interacting and therefore varying relationships between those.

In our hub motors, the armature is fixed to the spindle and consists of electrical windings around iron cores, called poles, arranged around the spindle. Surrounding that is a metal drum with bar magnets mounted all round the inner surface of the drum, which is free to revolve with the magnets just missing the armature. It's the revolving drum that drives the gears which in turn drive the hub and wheel. The passage that follows is a simplification of how the motor turns, not precisely accurate but easier to understand. As a magnet approaches one of the armature poles, the controller delivers current to that pole which temporarily magnetizes it, tugging the bar magnet towards it and thus rotating the drum. As you can see, the pull isn't only around the armature in the direction of rotation, it's also inwards, trying to pull the bar magnet into the pole as it passes.

Since the current turns off as the bar magnet passes by, the drum is exposed to a series of in/out jerks all around it's circumference as magnets pass poles. These are rapidly rocking the drum about it's bearing, vibrating it, and transmitting the rocking vibration to the gears and then the hub. Because there are many magnet and pole interactions per revolution, the minute knocks are at high frequency and therefore produce a form of whine with an odd vibrating component in the sound. The exact note and the quantity of it depends on all the slight dimensional variations and relationships I've mentioned. Just turning off the throttle and opening it again can change the sound as the twitch produced by that action changes the internal dimensional relationships.

As a bike goes faster and the drum rotates more quickly, there's less time for current to go into each pole winding so the consumption and power per pole reduces. This means less magnetic push pull, therefore less vibration in each pulse from a pole. In turn, the centrifugal force of the faster spinning magnet drum starts to overcome the now weaker inward pulls of the poles, so the operation is smoother and the noise reduces to a minimum at maximum speed.

It might seem that a motor assembly with minimal clearances would be best for the least noise, but that's not necessarily true, minimising the clearances initially just increases the frequency or pitch of the sound, the harmonic energy of which can set up worse vibrational noise elsewhere in the assembly. That's why an assembly can get quieter as it wears, and also why it's so difficult to manufacture this type of motor with an absolutely consistent pitch and quantity of noise.

To understand why a small clearance produces a higher frequency or pitch, think musical instruments. Short strings in a piano produce higher frequency notes, that's because a short tight string is limited in it's travel from side to side so it does more return trips in a given time. Likewise the short path across a small clearance, means more return journeys of component vibration in a given time. Quite separately, the components vibrating in our hubs each have their own harmonic vibration rates, just like a tuning fork, so want to vibrate at those consistent rates, but the vibration speed imparted by the magnetic pulses will almost always be different. This frequency mismatch means that the two clash to produce sound distortions which are made up of odd harmonics having very harsh natures. That assists in producing the curiously characteristic harsh growling, deep whining quality of a hard working electric motor such as heard when an electric milk float struggles on a hill or when we snap open the throttle at low speed, and the edginess of the sharp sounds in the whine when the motor spins at higher speeds.

I've only touched on this subject, for as you can see, it's immensely complex and potentially an engineer's nightmare. It's important to remember that it's an electric assist bike we're riding, and if we pedal the bike along and use the motor to help rather than the other way round, we reduce the noise to an optimum. Letting the motor do most of the work maximises the amount of sound produced in any given circumstance.
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overlander

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
532
42
Trek with Bionx system, over 200 miles now and never once heard the motor. Even on steep hill climbs it is completely silent.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
Trek with Bionx system, over 200 miles now and never once heard the motor. Even on steep hill climbs it is completely silent.
The BionX is direct drive of course, the motor rotating at wheel speed only and having no gears noise makes this type very quiet,

The internally geared SB type motors that I've written about above run at about 6 or 7 times the speed and have the gears noise to add to that.
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Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
417
0
Oxford
Mine is a 200-250w brushless hub motor. Makes the most noise between 5-10mph and slowly quietens as it reaches top speed. The sound is more noticeable in confined spaces. To me it sounds like a weaker milkfloat or tube train accelerating (especially with the potholes). I've driven both of those too!
 

fishingpaul

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 24, 2007
871
86
My torq 2 motor is pretty noticeable at full power when climbing,under less throttle it can be fairly quiet,i had a well used wisper 905e with the bafang motor and found that very quiet,even travelling through an empty park at night it seemed so quiet,for me power is king so i will just have to put up with the noise.
 

indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
Depends what noise you mean

I ride a Gazelle Easy Glider, one of the 2007 flavour, and find it pretty well noiseless in terms of actual motor power generation.

There are, however, some rather noticeable creaking sounds emanate from the crank area under load conditions which I'm sure someone else must have experienced and I'd like to know whether it's normal or a fault which ought to be seen to.

After using a regular Dawes tourer much of the time recently, I felt the need to revert to electric assistance again following some vascular surgery as I just couldn't manage hills. The Gazelle is a great cruise, very comfortable and ideal for people with heart/lung conditions but a bit short on dedicated dealers with spare parts readily available. If anyone knows of a reputable repairer in the Home Counties who can deal with Gazelle electric models, I'd appreciate the details.

The one thing I'd really like to change on the Gazelle is the rear sprocket as the gearing is too low for MY liking although it's probably perfect for cruising round Amsterdam. When assistance disappears at around 15mph, my little legs have to move too quickly to achieve or maintain higher speeds. Any suggestions as to a good compromise sprocket would be welcome. I want to retain hill-climbing ability but would like to be able to manage an easier cadence at 18-20mph. I switch off power when I can manage without it so miles per battery charge is not critical for me.

I so wish I had continued to cycle through the 50 years I drove everywhere!

Great website & thanks for any help or suggestions.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
Hi Indalo. That creaking has two possible sources, but a common one if the motor bolts have never been tightened is the Panasonic motor unit moving within the frame mounts. The frame is painted of course and the crank pressures side to side crush the new paint layer between the unit and frame mounts leaving it slightly slack. This photo of an upside down frame shows arrowed where the unit bolts are under the cowling, they just need to be tightened.

Motor on frame 1.jpg

The other possible cause is the cranks slack on the pedalshaft. These can be tightened with a thin walled socket once you remove the dust caps in the crank ends, or any cycle dealer can do it for you. However the motor bolts are the most likely cause.

If your bike has a 22 or 23 tooth rear sprocket which is likely, a 19 or 18 tooth will reduce your pedal spin speed and raise the assist speed cutoff by 2 or 3 mph, but of course it will also raise your bottom gear. If you find you hardly need bottom gear that won't matter of course, but your range will reduce since the motor will be working more of the time. An alternative method is to change the motor drive sprocket from the standard 9 tooth to an 11 tooth. That slows the spin speed and raises the gearing in exactly the same way.

Panasonic do not supply any internal spares for these motor units, only external parts like replacement motor drive sprockets and battery connector platforms.

If it's convenient for you, Bike Plus in Croydon's Brighton Road are experienced in selling and maintaining Panasonic unit bikes since they used to sell the Giant Lafree bikes with those units. Click on this link to see their website and then click the "About us" button at the left to get details and directions. They have free car parking bays in front of the shop. If that's not convenient there are a number of other outlets around London selling and servicing Panasonic unit bikes, it doesn't have to be a Gazelle dealer.
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indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
Hi Flecc.

I'm very grateful for such a prompt & comprehensive reply to my queries. I shall check those crankcase bolts later today and I imagine if I slacken & re-tighten them, that creakiness will disappear unless it's actually coming from my knees!

If I need to use a bike shop, the one on the end of your link sounds like it's a pretty professional set-up and I guess for you to mention them, you must be confident in their abilities with Panasonic powered bikes. As for the sprocket, I'll probably pick one up & change it myself at some point although I have been informed that decorating my hall, landing & stairs is the priority at this time!

Many thanks Flecc.
 

Jonah

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2010
882
246
EX38
The 'nano' hub motor is virtually silent when running. When coming off the throttle there is some noise (and minor resistance) which isn't there before the motor is first used. I think this reduces over time. Is this normal?
 

indalo

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
1,380
1
Herts & Spain
Hi again Flecc.

Further to my last, I slackened the motor mounting bolts, waggled it around a little and pinched up the bolts. While I was in the mood, I cleaned & oiled the chain, adjusted the brakes, re-aligned the rear wheel in the drop-outs then adjusted the gear change cable. A short road test revealed that creaking is no longer an issue and the bike is running sweetly.

Thanks for the guidance Flecc.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
A pleasure Indalo, the motor bolts are usually the cause of this creaking once run in, it might be an idea for the agents of the various makes to include advice on this with each bike sold.
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Matty

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 4, 2010
8
0
Mine's a electro drive retro fit kit, probably about 10 years old now I'd guess. It's broken at the moment, but for the 4 days I had it running, it was noisy as hell.

Probably very noticeable to other riders, but once the wind was in my ears, I could barely hear it myself.

Did feel a little bit silly on quiet streets though. Not so bad at full throttle on a busy road.

Still. Laziness vs. street cred; no competition.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Hi Tex I see you have added an Optibike to your stable...Any comments on the 850 watt beast of e bikes?:D
 

fishingpaul

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 24, 2007
871
86
Out of interest would having a front hub motor seem louder as you are running into the noise, where as rear mounted you are running away from the noise,flecc i know you swapped the same motor from front to rear.
 

Grizzly Bear

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 14, 2007
282
0
65
Swansea
www.grizzlyfish.com
I have a some of the little Bafang motors, on 36 volts they are almost silent, on 48 volts they are very noisy, very strange! On 48 volts the little one is amazingly powerful, and I haven't fried it yet! As the advert says "cheap but good" very true in my experience!
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
Out of interest would having a front hub motor seem louder as you are running into the noise, where as rear mounted you are running away from the noise,flecc i know you swapped the same motor from front to rear.
Yes, it did make it noticeably quieter Paul. Likewise my Quando based rear SB motor bike, even though I'm very close to that motor I hardly hear it, and with large linked panniers in place it's virtually inaudible.
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