How would you build a 1kW SEL?

Arbol

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Aug 31, 2013
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A thought:

If the limit is 1kW / 25km/h, one could buy a 9C (which I believe is rated at 1kW), put say a 72V @ 40A, which I believe is the maximum power "safe" for that motor, and regulate max speed to 25km/h (maybe through a Cycle Analyst).

That would be legal, right?

The only difference would be that one needs to register the vehicle, and pay some yearly insurance for the "moped" (I guess both UK and Barcelona).

In Barcelona there is the added bonus that these mopeds are given "e-bike status", ie they can use bike lanes.

That would be amazing. I do not know if it would be very useful for city usage. But I am sure it would be fun off-road. And funnily, almost the same price as a "normal" kit.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Yes, it makes sense. I have just seen that with the rent of these Curries, there is a basic insurance included. So I guess that in order to use one of these SEL / "Low Powered Moped", one needs to register with the municipality (which I guess is done when the purchase takes place) and one needs a basic insurance (unlike e-bikes).
Yes, in the UK it's all the moped regulations, DVLA registration with number plate, insurance, m/c helmet etc., so no advantage over a normal moped. If not already type approved, it would have to be taken through single vehicle approval at a Vehicle Inspectorate testing station before registration would be possible.

I think other EU countries are more tolerant with this class.

P.S. Your Barcelona example shows that tolerance, which Britain never shows with legislation. I know Austria are similarly tolerant regarding cycle lane use.
 

Arbol

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I have just called the shop selling those Curries, and they tell me that the insurance is not needed, even. Effectively, SELs are treated like e-bikes. The issue then is having a SEL / e-bike with less than 1kW "nominal continuous", and being able to limit max speed in some way. I know a Cycle Analyst is a possibility, I guess there are others.
 

flecc

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Even more tolerance there then. I'm afraid Britain is very strict in both adoption of all laws and their enforcement, as our fishermen know to their cost. An example in our field was the BMW C1 moped, designed to be used safely without a crash helmet. EU countries and many others around the world made exceptions to accommodate that, but Britain stubbornly refused to make an exception, insisting riders would still have to wear helmets. :(
 
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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You set the maximum speed in the LCD to the speed you want.
Be careful, the RH154 is a cheapish mini DD motor, it will take any voltage and current but not for long, the copper insulation will melt! On steep hills, the motor efficiency can easily drop, most of the battery energy is converted into heat.
9continent offers a range of windings to suit you but nothing beats checking the motor test report before committing. This motor excels at 20-22mph on flat roads against light headwinds (with the winding I selected). That's what I am interested in but it's not for everyone. Read this thread, one of the posters melted one:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38608&start=30
 
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Arbol

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Even more tolerance there then. I'm afraid Britain is very strict in both adoption of all laws and their enforcement, as our fishermen know to their cost. An example in our field was the BMW C1 moped, designed to be used safely without a crash helmet. EU countries and many others around the world made exceptions to accommodate that, but Britain stubbornly refused to make an exception, insisting riders would still have to wear helmets. :(
But for cars, the UK allows kit cars unlike anywhere in Europe. All in all, I believe the UK is "freer" than Continental Europe, in the sense of having less regulations. The difference is those regulations are enforced in the UK quite heavily, IMHO.
 

Arbol

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You set the maximum speed in the LCD to the speed you want.
Be careful, the RH154 is a cheapish mini DD motor, it will take any voltage and current but not for long, the copper insulation will melt! On steep hills, the motor efficiency can easily drop, most of the battery energy is converted into heat.
9continent offers a range of windings to suit you but nothing beats checking the motor test report before committing. This motor excels at 20-22mph on flat roads against light headwinds (with the winding I selected). That's what I am interested in but it's not for everyone. Read this thread, one of the posters melted one:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38608&start=30
Yes, and in fact, the less than 1kW regulation does not "force" me to go to 9C. I could settle with a Bafang CST 500W. That would be for sure enough for me, and I could keep my cassette.

d8veh, which would be your preferred configuration with a Bafang CST 500W: 36V or 48V (I ask this due to the inefficiency you were pointing out before for the CST 250W being run at 48V, I do not know if this inefficiency also translates into the CST 500W at 48V or not)? 30A (S12P / KU123) or 22A (S12S)?

Edit: what does the "3-speed switch" in the KU123 mean? Is this something that allows to restrict max speed at say 25km/h pushing the first button, and letting max speed unlimited with the third button? There is also a "speed limited wire", which I do not know how it relates (if any) with the "3-speed switch".
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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But for cars, the UK allows kit cars unlike anywhere in Europe. All in all, I believe the UK is "freer" than Continental Europe, in the sense of having less regulations. The difference is those regulations are enforced in the UK quite heavily, IMHO.
Yes, you are right with kit cars. I'm afraid in other areas the UK certainly doesn't feel more free. As well as that C1 example, it took us over ten years to acknowledge 250 watts for e-bikes and that concession still not written into law. And the DfT has said never to anything like the S class e-bikes that Germany enjoys.

I think the Italians have got it right, adopt all the laws and then ignore them!
 
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d8veh, which would be your preferred configuration with a Bafang CST 500W: 36V or 48V (I ask this due to the inefficiency you were pointing out before for the CST 250W being run at 48V, I do not know if this inefficiency also translates into the CST 500W at 48V or not)? 30A (S12P / KU123) or 22A (S12S)?

Edit: what does the "3-speed switch" in the KU123 mean? Is this something that allows to restrict max speed at say 25km/h pushing the first button, and letting max speed unlimited with the third button? There is also a "speed limited wire", which I do not know how it relates (if any) with the "3-speed switch".
it depends on what type of journeys you do. You have to consider whether the motor has enough power to keep the speed up hills. The thing you must avoid is running the motor at less than half of its maximum speed at full throttle. The higher the voltage, the higher the maximum speed. the 500W CST runs very well with 36v and 30 amps too give a cruising speed of about 20 mph and assistance up to about 24 mph, whilst still being able to climb long steep hills.If you don't have hills, a higher voltage would make it faster. 48V would also be OK if you're lighter - say 80kg or less.

The three-speed switch has two functions, which work differently:
Position one engages a fixed speed limit of 25km'hr
Position two does nothing - normal operation
Position three changed the timing of the FETs like having valve overlap in a IC engine. This allows the motor to give power to a higher speed than is normally possible. It only works with a hall sensor motor. You get about a 10% increase in speed, so the cruising speed on the 500W CST goes up to about 22mph. You should switch back to normal operation for hill-climbing. The KU123 also has speed limit jumper wires, to which you can add a switch. Don't forget that the speed limit has to be permanent. One operated by a switch doesn't count.
 
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Arbol

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it depends on what type of journeys you do. You have to consider whether the motor has enough power to keep the speed up hills. The thing you must avoid is running the motor at less than half of its maximum speed at full throttle. The higher the voltage, the higher the maximum speed. the 500W CST runs very well with 36v and 30 amps too give a cruising speed of about 20 mph and assistance up to about 24 mph, whilst still being able to climb long steep hills.If you don't have hills, a higher voltage would make it faster. 48V would also be OK if you're lighter - say 80kg or less.
Type of journeys:

1. Not steep but longish hills, within the city. My feeling is not much power is needed there. Also, I would limit my speed when at the city for security reasons
2. For the weekends, there are places I would like to go with steep hills

I weight 73kg, I am almost 39 and relatively fit. Why 48V is better is weight is less than 80kg?

For (1), I just want not to sweat at all, ie jump to the bike after having a shower, and reach destination as if I had just had a shower. Ideally, no pedalling at all (and Barcelona regulations allow that, as described in this thread).

For (2), I do not care about regulations much because everything is off-road.

When you wrote "the 500W CST runs very well with 36v and 30 amps too give a cruising speed of about 20 mph and assistance up to about 24 mph" in fact you meant "the 500W CST runs very well with 36v and 30 amps TO give a cruising speed of about 20 mph and assistance up to about 24 mph", right?

The comment "The thing you must avoid is running the motor at less than half of its maximum speed at full throttle" suggests a 36V configuration is best, because within the city, I would usually be at around 20km/h or even less. And for off-road, I really do not want speed, I prefer acceleration over speed.

The three-speed switch has two functions, which work differently:
Position one engages a fixed speed limit of 25km'hr
Position two does nothing - normal operation
Position three changed the timing of the FETs like having valve overlap in a IC engine. This allows the motor to give power to a higher speed than is normally possible. It only works with a hall sensor motor. You get about a 10% increase in speed, so the cruising speed on the 500W CST goes up to about 22mph. You should switch back to normal operation for hill-climbing. The KU123 also has speed limit jumper wires, to which you can add a switch. Don't forget that the speed limit has to be permanent. One operated by a switch doesn't count.
Let me see if I have understood you. There are two functions, as seen under Download at http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/364-universal-brushless-hub-motor-controller.html:

1. Speed limit wire: this wire just limits max speed permanently (as far as the connection is plugged at the controller). Is this a speed sensor, to be mounted on a spoke? How can I select the max speed I want (25km/h)?

When you say "The KU123 also has speed limit jumper wires, to which you can add a switch. Don't forget that the speed limit has to be permanent. One operated by a switch doesn't count", I guess the speed limit jumper wires you refer to is this "Speed limit wire". How could I add a stealthy switch such that I can turn on and off the speed limit at will?

2. 3-speed switch: these are the three options you describe. The first one allows what I want (limit max speed to 25km/h) without any further work.

The KU123 with the 3-speed switch seems to be ideal, since it is both sensored and unsensored, gives max amperage (30A) and does not require PAS and "odd" hydraulic brake e-switches. The disadvantage is I always have to control the throttle (instead of using a PAS level, which allows motor usage without the rider having to do anything at all), I do not know how much boring it is. Also, apparently sinus wave controllers are softer with the gears and less noisy. The 3-speed switch is handy, but not obvious its legality.
 
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1. Speed limit wire: this wire just limits max speed permanently (as far as the connection is plugged at the controller). Is this a speed sensor, to be mounted on a spoke? How can I select the max speed I want (25km/h)?

When you say "The KU123 also has speed limit jumper wires, to which you can add a switch. Don't forget that the speed limit has to be permanent. One operated by a switch doesn't count", I guess the speed limit jumper wires you refer to is this "Speed limit wire". How could I add a stealthy switch such that I can turn on and off the speed limit at will?

2. 3-speed switch: these are the three options you describe. The first one allows what I want (limit max speed to 25km/h) without any further work.

The KU123 with the 3-speed switch seems to be ideal, since it is both sensored and unsensored, gives max amperage (30A) and does not require PAS and "odd" hydraulic brake e-switches. The disadvantage is I always have to control the throttle (instead of using a PAS level, which allows motor usage without the rider having to do anything at all), I do not know how much boring it is. Also, apparently sinus wave controllers are softer with the gears and less noisy. The 3-speed switch is handy, but not obvious its legality.
The speed limit works from the hall-sensor signal so you don't need a wheel-speed sensor, neither can you change the speed limit. I think it's the same whether you use the three-speed switch or the jumper wires, but I'm not sure. The jumper wires is definitely 15 mph.
 

Arbol

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Aug 31, 2013
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Slight price difference though :)
I agree. At that price, it would make sense to purchase as a toy. As always, I believe the key issue is batteries. Putting a decent battery inside that frame could for sure change dramatically the vehicle.
 

cwah

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But the problem with small in-wheel motor is that they are not able to deliver 1KW power..
 
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