Hub gears v derailleur on an E bike.

Crockers

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I was looking at a Bulls bike with a Brose motor and Alfine 8 hub. Has anyone any experience of this hub gears. Are they reliable as I've heard the 11 leaked oil. Can the 8 handle the torque of the Brose motor or would I be better off looking at a bike with derailleur gears instead.

This is the bike in question

http://justebikes.co.uk/products/bulls-sturmvogel-e-evo/
 

tommie

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Mar 13, 2013
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I`m running the exact same hub on my BBS02 750w conversion,
so far so good, apparently the 11 version has a lot of issues if you do a search,
in fact even with the 8 speed there`s three or four gears too many i reckon, with the torque on tap you`ll find yourself changing two at a time.
much prefer it over the derailleur set-up, chain line is now straight and you don`t get caught in the wrong gear at a junction any more...

time will tell on reliability.


P1000530.JPG
 

tillson

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May 29, 2008
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I've done over 20000 mile with my 8 speed Alfine. The motor is an old Panasonic crank drive, so not as much torque as the newer motors, which has probably helped with its long life.
 

Artstu

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Aug 2, 2009
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I've got about 7,000 miles on a Nexus 8 hub with a Bosch classic motor. I've just had it to bits as the bike developed an intermittent nasty crack sound. I suspected it may be the hub, so stripped it, cleaned it and regreased it. Back to normal now with nice slick gear-changes and no cracking sound.
I use all 8 gears and they just cover my needs.

I stripped a friends Alfine 8 at lower miles and it was a bit of a state inside compared to my hub, a clean and regrease had it up to scratch again though.
 

D8ve

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Jan 30, 2013
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8 spd with disk brake 750 miles and I use gears 3-8 . If I had no power then I might need gears 1 and 2.
Need to blip brake to change gear when climbing but great for trafic lights and sudden stops just change and go.
Much better than derailleur and single speed chain is much cheaper and heavier duty. Ditto rear cassette.
 

tillson

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Much better than derailleur and single speed chain is much cheaper and heavier duty. Ditto rear cassette.
Yes, that is a big plus. The heavier duty chain and sprockets suits ebikes very well. I usually have two chains which I swap over from time to time. After trying many different fancy lubricants, I've found a liberal coating of grease the best. I then just clean it off and re-grease when I swap the chains over, not swapping the sprockets until teeth start falling off.
 
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RobF

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Lack of chain wear on a hub gear is due to a few factors.

The sprockets - both ends - run all full size teeth, unlike the teeth on a cassette or front double or triple which are different shaped to allow smooth derailing - some of those teeth are quite shallow so the chain is more likely to slip on them.

The chain line is always perfect, and the chain is not worn by scraping across a cassette.

The higher chain line means the chain picks up less road dirt and grit.

Result is a chain that can last for many thousands of miles.

My Rose has done about 5,000 miles and is still on the original chain with no sign of significant wear.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Lack of chain wear on a hub gear is due to a few factors.

The sprockets - both ends - run all full size teeth, unlike the teeth on a cassette or front double or triple which are different shaped to allow smooth derailing - some of those teeth are quite shallow so the chain is more likely to slip on them.

The chain line is always perfect, and the chain is not worn by scraping across a cassette.

The higher chain line means the chain picks up less road dirt and grit.

Result is a chain that can last for many thousands of miles.

Plus the derailleur sprockets and chain rollers are narrower, so less bearing area taking the wear:

Hub and Single gear = 1/8" chain roller/sprocket teeth width

Up to 8 speed derailleur = 3/32" chain roller/sprocket teeth width

Derailleur gears over 8 speed even narrower sprocket and chainroller width, but varying by maker.
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KeithMac

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Z1X Inox looks beefy?, I'd be interested as well for heavy duty single speed chain recommendations.
 

Artstu

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just on the subject of chains for this hub, maybe someone could advise on what chain is most suitable from these KMC items?

http://www.kmcchain.eu/chain-e_bike-singlespeed-wide

or any others recommended?
You really need wider sprockets for any advantage of the wider chains.

KMC recommended this one to me, I'm happy with its lower wear rate, the terrain I ride in is very hard on components with some serious heavy duty high load climbing.

http://www.kmcchain.eu/chain-KMC_X1_Silver-e_bike-narrow
 
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RobF

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You need to be a bit careful about chain width on a hub gear.

Rohloff, for example, recommend a 3/32" chain, not least because 1/8" won't work with a tensioner.

Interestingly, Rohloff, who are very anal about all things engineering, say a 1/8" is 'by no means stronger'.

https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/faqs/
 
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flecc

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Interestingly, Rohloff, who are very anal about all things engineering, say a 1/8" is 'by no means stronger'.
They also claim an efficiency of circa 99% for their hub gear which is completely impossible!

In respect of chains, it depends on what "stronger" means. In terms of pull strength against breakage I'd agree, but in terms of wear rate definitely wrong. 1/8th chains and sprockets easily outlive 3.32" ones in equivalent use and what they say about this is bunkum:

"However, these thicker chains are by no means stronger and not recommended for use with the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 due to their relatively short lifespan."

No chain maker will agree, as the workload rises they widen the chain and sprockets. For example goods carrying trade bikes typically have 5/32" chain roller/sprocket teeth width. And then of course there's motorcycle chains!
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Crockers

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Ok I'm showing my ignorance. Why do some hub gears have that little derailleur type arm. ?? Is it to square off the chain? To adjust the tension? Should they be fitted to all hub gears?
 

flecc

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Ok I'm showing my ignorance. Why do some hub gears have that little derailleur type arm. ?? Is it to square off the chain? To adjust the tension? Should they be fitted to all hub gears?
There are various reasons for using a tensioner with hub gear or single speed bikes. One is using a derailleur type dropout frame which has no sliding adjustment for the rear wheel. This is sometimes done for the superior wheel alignment of such frames or avoiding the fundamental weakness of spindle slide slots in frames.

Another has been with some e-bikes using older Panansonic crank units which have a front chain idler following the motor drive sprocket. These have sometimes been blamed for allowing chains to go slack at times, causing chain bounce and chains derailling.

There's little point in using a tensioner arm with a slotted frame, but they can dynamically take up uneven wear in different parts of a chain. However, any chain getting to that stage should have been changed.
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flecc

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yes, in my case the frame dropouts are vertical so i couldn`t pull the wheel back to tension the chain,

hence the tensioner to take up any slack.
And of course there's the alternative menthod of chain tensioning with a vertical dropout frame, using an eccentric bottom bracket like these.

Technically they are for altering the frame geometry to suit fussy riders, but can also adjust chains of course.
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Artstu

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There's little point in using a tensioner arm with a slotted frame
I think my bike would probably be scrap now if I hadn't fitted a tensioner. There was someone on here a few years ago who ended up with nearly destroyed horizontal drop-outs in a very short space of time.
Mine was a nightmare to tension and align the wheel, terrible design from KTM.
 
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flecc

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I think my bike would probably be scrap now if I hadn't fitted a tensioner. There was someone on here a few years ago who ended up with nearly destroyed horizontal drop-outs in a very short space of time.
Mine was a nightmare to tension and align the wheel, terrible design from KTM.
Yes, some frame designs and materials were substandard. The otherwise excellent Giant Lafree series suffered from soft alloy dropout material that stretched the frame slots wider over time.

Of course chain adjustment slots in frames originally existed when frames were made of steel and didn't suffer from such problems. Like many I still wonder if alloy frames were much of an advance, given how light and strong the Reynolds steel tube frames were.

http://www.reynoldstechnology.biz/
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