Illegal Bikes

[allen-uk]

Just been out for a few morning hills, and trying without the off-road button.

Which doesn't appear to work!

Tried it pressed in, tried it out, motor still whined away when pedalling, speed didn't seem to alter much.

(Q: for Wisper owners: is it supposed to pushed IN for on, or OUT?)


Allen.

 

[Blew it]

Wisper 905's fitted with an off-road switch had 18 amp controllers. When derestricted, the pedelec function only assists to the usual 14.5 mph. To get full power you will need to open the throttle to get the remaining 3.5 mph.

You can test this by leaning the bike onto the prop-stand, open the throttle and then operate the green button, you should notice the difference of the no-load speed of the wheel.

 

[dan]

No aspects of the 1983, 1988 or 2003 legislation on electric assisted bikes have been court tested in mainland Britain as far as I know. I've seen a claim that there was a prosecution or two in one of the Channel Islands, but that has not been verified and in any case they have their own odd laws there as well.

I agree with Patrick though, the ways the laws are worded leaves no room for doubt about "off road" buttons. If an e-bike can exceed the legal assisted speed limit or has a motor rated at over 200 watts (British regs) or 250 watts (EU regs), either all the time or as a rider option, it is a motorcycle.
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2002 high court in London Letita Winter V DPP

Winter claimed an electric city bug scooter was an electric bike because it had pedals fitted to the front wheels. The court found that although the city bug was fitted with pedals, they were not able to be used as a primary form of power and so it was classed a moped and the appeal against a road traffic act conviction was not allowed.

This case has be cited in several court cases brought against riders of electric bikes, to prove the reverse, that if an electric bike has pedal system that can be used as it's prime form of power , and meets the other requirements of the road traffic act it is exempt from being classed as a motorised vehicle.

One case it was used in was in Bournemouth in 2005, a magistrates' court had found a rider of an electric bike guilty of using a motorised vehicle without insurance and gave him 6 points on his license. At appeal, circuit Judge Harrow sitting with 2 magistrates, reviewed the specfication of the electric bike, as supplied by the manufacturer, and refered to the Winter V DPP case. The appeal was allowed.

Another case in West London for drunk in charge of a motor vehicle, and riding whilst disqualified (the guy fell of his electric bike in front of a police officer), the defence cited Winter V DPP, produced the bike in court, and all of the specifications. Result not guilty.

The list goes on.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the information Dan. I knew of the successful prosecutions of minimal pedal types, powered pavement scooters etc, and the drunk in charge case, but not of those others involving proper e-bikes. Clearly the licence threatening risks of using illegal e-bikes are there as I've often warned, though the incidence of detection and prosecution seems very low.

Once the impending changes in the law are ratified and notified to police forces that could change with more awareness.
.

 

[Alex728]

2002 high court in London Letita Winter V DPP

Otherwise known as Fay Presto, the transgendered magician and former bike courier....

A minor celebrity from the 1980s or thereabouts, fairly opinionated (with a history of left wing political activism..) and quite flamboyant (the machine itself was customised studded with rhinestones) - her argument in Court was that she assumed it was a bicycle so she did not have to wear helmet and damage her hairstyle!....

TBH I think someone of this nature is much more likely to attract attention than your average cyclist..

 

[allen-uk]

Blew it:

Thanks for that info. I wonder why it's nowhere to be found in the more conventional places, i.e. the manual, or the Wisper web sites!

Anyway, what it MEANS is that I've been cycling round for much of the time with the derestricted button quite functionless, so I must be able to push those pedals round myself. I don't use the throttle much when riding - I use it nearly all the time for starting from a standstill, and very occasionally after a steep hill when I get to the flat bit and want a rest.

But I shall be testing it tomorrow. (Q: would I miss it if I took it off?)

Dan, Alex:

Thanks for the legal reminiscences. Even more interesting. Do you recall why the Bournemouth case had its appeal allowed (i.e., on what grounds?)


Allen, (ex left-wing loony activist. Well, no longer an activist, anyway)

 

[flecc]

Do you recall why the Bournemouth case had its appeal allowed (i.e., on what grounds?)

Because an e-bike is not a motor vehicle in law and the drink drive law only applies to motor vehicles. UK speed limits have the same status, motor vehicles only.
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[Straylight]

UK speed limits have the same status, motor vehicles only.
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Great! I was holding back from going over 60 down the little country lanes

 

[dan]

Because an e-bike is not a motor vehicle in law and the drink drive law only applies to motor vehicles. UK speed limits have the same status, motor vehicles only.
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It was not a drink drive case. The defendant was appealing against being given six points on his licence for having no insurance.

I was not in court and all judge Harrow said when he emailed me after the case was "when I showed the result of my research to the prosecuting counsel, we allowed the appellant to extend his appeal to conviction which was then allowed, he was originally only appealing againt the penalty points"

 

[MikeW]

Getting back to the original topic - the discussion of illegal bikes on the forum as opposed to the issues surrounding their use - I think it's a good thing. Laws are there (or should be) to balance the protection of society against the freedom of the individual. But laws change as society's needs change and other factors, sometimes technology-based, come into play. The laws governing motor vehicles are a lot different today from when we had men walking in front them waving little flags. The only way the people can get laws updated over time to better match the needs of the day is to discuss their pros and cons in an open forum, reach conclusions and, where necessary, lobby the lawmakers. That discussion also provides a mechanism for those who think the current law should be strictly followed to convey that opinion to those who do not. It also allows anyone to criticise someone who boasts behaviour that would be widely recognised as irresponsible, so demonstrating that the forum members are not just a bunch of anarchists who need to be controlled.

Personally, being new to e-bikes and having test ridden several recently, I think the UK law as it stands errs too much on the side of protection and does not give the individual enough freedom. When it falls in line with EU law and pedalling becomes mandatory it will be even worse. I'm not arguing that we should all be allowed to hurtle around at 30mph untested and uninsured, but the current limits provide so little benefit to many would-be casual riders and commuters, especially given the typically higher cost of an e-bike, that they do nothing to encourage people to use their cars a little less and get a little bit more exercise (both in the interests of the society the law is designed to protect - surely?). Yes, if you have a trick knee or a heart condition then a bit of electric assistance can make the difference between cycling and not, but for a lot of healthy, but not necessarily fit, individuals, I believe the bikes that stick rigidly to the (forthcoming) law will be largely unattractive.

The natural outcome of that is a) e-bikes will become more expensive as volumes drop, b) some current manufacturers will go out of business, c) more people will be forced to go for illegal bikes.

So I say discuss it. I don't expect the law to change in the other direction, but we shouldn't be afraid to say we don't agree with it (if we don't) and pretend that we are all sticking to it (if we are not).

 

[Old Timer]

Getting back to the original topic - the discussion of illegal bikes on the forum as opposed to the issues surrounding their use - I think it's a good thing. Laws are there (or should be) to balance the protection of society against the freedom of the individual. But laws change as society's needs change and other factors, sometimes technology-based, come into play. The laws governing motor vehicles are a lot different today from when we had men walking in front them waving little flags. The only way the people can get laws updated over time to better match the needs of the day is to discuss their pros and cons in an open forum, reach conclusions and, where necessary, lobby the lawmakers. That discussion also provides a mechanism for those who think the current law should be strictly followed to convey that opinion to those who do not. It also allows anyone to criticise someone who boasts behaviour that would be widely recognised as irresponsible, so demonstrating that the forum members are not just a bunch of anarchists who need to be controlled.

Personally, being new to e-bikes and having test ridden several recently, I think the UK law as it stands errs too much on the side of protection and does not give the individual enough freedom. When it falls in line with EU law and pedalling becomes mandatory it will be even worse. I'm not arguing that we should all be allowed to hurtle around at 30mph untested and uninsured, but the current limits provide so little benefit to many would-be casual riders and commuters, especially given the typically higher cost of an e-bike, that they do nothing to encourage people to use their cars a little less and get a little bit more exercise (both in the interests of the society the law is designed to protect - surely?). Yes, if you have a trick knee or a heart condition then a bit of electric assistance can make the difference between cycling and not, but for a lot of healthy, but not necessarily fit, individuals, I believe the bikes that stick rigidly to the (forthcoming) law will be largely unattractive.

The natural outcome of that is a) e-bikes will become more expensive as volumes drop, b) some current manufacturers will go out of business, c) more people will be forced to go for illegal bikes.

So I say discuss it. I don't expect the law to change in the other direction, but we shouldn't be afraid to say we don't agree with it (if we don't) and pretend that we are all sticking to it (if we are not).

Quite well put Mike and to be honest , anyone spending time to read through the threads on here will soon come to the conclusion that members are responsible cyclists that I would imagine police themselves when needbe.

 

[flecc]

Yes indeed Mike, very well put on almost all points.

The one thing where I disagree is the following:

I believe the bikes that stick rigidly to the (forthcoming) law will be largely unattractive.

In the western world the one area where e-bikes are hugely successful is in the nearby mainland European countries, Holland most notably of all. There and in the adjoining countries where e-bikes are always non-throttle pedelecs, they are becoming a huge proportion of all bike sales. By contrast in the UK where we have throttles we've struggled to get e-bike sales much above 1% of bike sales.

Note that this is not a reflection of relative cycling popularity, just the proportion of cyclists who opt for e-power assistance. Clearly the near 400 millions of the mainland EU are not put off by a lack of throttles
.

 

[NRG]

I thought they had no choice though?

 

[Alex728]

I thought they had no choice though?

As a country NL is also prepared to bend or reinterpret the rules (consider the tolerant attitude in certain areas to contentious things such as drug use and the sex industry) so I expect if there was a consensus (very important in NL politics) they easily could tolerate throttle assist bikes, and its hardly rocket science to modify them.

there is a difference in Europe that it is easier to get smaller mopeds often without license requirements (only helmet, insurance and tax) but the NL traffic ministry is introducing tests for the bromfiets for the first time.

also younger, fitter people often aren't buying an ebike to go fast, they can already do that on a light weight push bike. They are buying one because it makes carrying stuff like shopping, small amounts of items for work much easier and makes regular journeys less of a chore. This form of utility cycling is of course the main form of bike use across the North Sea..

At least two of the cyclists I go drinking with (age group 30s to 50s) are considering building ebike conversions for this reason, having seen my Wisper...

in fact the EU rules seem to mean even on a unmodded bike someone just has to keep pedalling in low gear but can still get a boost from the throttle - AFAIK many French e-bikes are set up in this configuration.

 

[MikeW]

You may be right, but the barriers to bikes being an accepted and viable means of personal utility transport (ie, as a genuine, routine alternative to cars, etc, rather than just for enthusiasts) in the Netherlands and some other mainland EU countries are far, far lower than in the UK. Some of that is down to the geographic features of the country, but it is also about the authorities treating bikes as being on a par with other methods of transport and road infrastructure and town planning being aligned with that attitude.

In the UK, we don't, and a lot more is needed to make cycling routinely viable for more people. This isn't easy and it will take years, even with considered effort. To me, e-bikes are one way to broaden the utility transport user base. And with that, maybe we get another step toward movement on more cycle-friendly road infrastructure, etc. I feel the law should change to allow greater flexibility, to get more bums on saddles, rather than go the other way and likely rule out what were potential users.

 

[Caph]

bikes being an accepted and viable means of personal utility transport

I think this is the major obstacle to ebikes turning mainstream. When I mention electric bikes I always get an initial reaction that it is cheating and on a par with electric mobility scooters. The fact that it is a viable means of motorised transport simply does not enter in to the public mind. Of course, once you've tried it you understand this straight away but until this perception is corrected I don't think ebikes will never realise their full potential in our society.

 

[onmebike]

Although the design of the pedelec system require's the rider to pedal before assistance is given, pedalling isn't required once moving as I recently discovered. Simply moving the pedals back and forth will keep the power on in a similar way to a fixed throttle position. I don't know if this is typical of all ebike's but it kind of make's a nonsense of the no throttle regulation's.

 

[eddieo]

I tried a Panasonic bike for the first time a few days ago, OK I was spoilt it was the superb swiss flyer X series, but the 250 watt legal model. all I can say is that you still reach for the none existent throttle (a bit like going for the gear stick in an auto car ) but I soon got used to it, I am very overweight, health problems and a weak right knee due to bodged operation.......If I can ride these and really enjoy it anyone can!

I did not have the opportunity to try on hills but will try a kalkhoff and E Motion next...But I trust Flecc's opinion, and if he says they climb better then that is good enough for me to be honest

A future without a throttle is not that bad, as the bike I tried was far lighter and responsive a bike, with instant power when you press on the peddle...very enjoyable.

so to all the throttle jockeys...get over it!

 

[flecc]

You may be right, but the barriers to bikes being an accepted and viable means of personal utility transport (ie, as a genuine, routine alternative to cars, etc, rather than just for enthusiasts) in the Netherlands and some other mainland EU countries are far, far lower than in the UK. Some of that is down to the geographic features of the country, but it is also about the authorities treating bikes as being on a par with other methods of transport and road infrastructure and town planning being aligned with that attitude.

In the UK, we don't, and a lot more is needed to make cycling routinely viable for more people. This isn't easy and it will take years, even with considered effort. To me, e-bikes are one way to broaden the utility transport user base. And with that, maybe we get another step toward movement on more cycle-friendly road infrastructure, etc. I feel the law should change to allow greater flexibility, to get more bums on saddles, rather than go the other way and likely rule out what were potential users.

But Mike, I specifically made the point that I was talking percentages of those buying bikes, the barriers make no difference to those since they apply to both bike types, not just electric. In those countries a far, far higher proportion of bike buyers are opting for e-power with unpowered bikes losing out. Having no throttle option choice clearly isn't putting them off from going electric.

NRG, they have no choice, as we will have no choice in the future, but it doesn't stop them buying e-bikes. Quite the contrary. Therefore I don't believe our sales will be badly hit by the change, people will just get used to it.
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[Alex728]

Some of that is down to the geographic features of the country, but it is also about the authorities treating bikes as being on a par with other methods of transport and road infrastructure and town planning being aligned with that attitude.

this is true but trying to encourage faster e-bikes before changing this is working backwards IMO (a bit like how 10 years ago in the dot com boom stuff like online shopping was tried before broadband.and a lot of companies went bankrupt this way)

but even today (as todays e-bikes have an immediate benefit) there are still enough UK ebike sales to keep several companies afloat, to keep competition keen and slowly raise the bar at the lower end of the market and all this whilst remaining (mostly) within the law.

also, as there are no dated makers plates on current e-bikes and the British govt have dragged their heels with harmonising the laws, the cops/VOSA are going to get in a real pickle trying to strictly enforce throttle laws - they will only really be able to target those people who are going at 25mph unpowered and doing so in such a dangerous/anti-social fashion that it attracts the attention of the already often overworked local bobby..

there is a much wider lobby for utility cycling in some parts of the UK which does not care if people are riding MTBs, hybrids or ebikes provided they are ridden sensibly, and if they succeed then greater adoption of e-bikes will soon follow.