Infineum vs Cytronex vs Sparticle - why still so few Infineum reports?

[caleb]

Hi,

I’m having difficulty understanding why the Infineum Extreme isn’t a more widely adopted/discussed e-bike? I have no connection with them or Powacycle but their bike really seems to fit my needs, though I’m becoming increasingly worried by the lack of discussion/reviews/comments, etc. They seem widely sold and have been around now for a while, so why so few reviews? I see Zippy has written a review , in which he reported early problems but now appears very happy, so why is he still the only Infineum owner???

Perhaps I should explain why it’s my choice of e-bike, well on paper at least.

I’m a relatively fit 38 year-old who’s just moved out of town and now has 6.5 mile commute to work. Although the village we’ve moved to is well served by both train and bus connections, I’ve always cycled to work and intend to keep it up. However, there’s a fairly long and steep hill on the way to work with a very long but gentle slope on the other side and so I was looking to an electric bike to take the edge off it both ways. Also, I play football 3 times a week in town and the cycle home afterwards will probably now be quite tiring. My work is about to implement the Cycle2Work scheme, should start next month.

As I’m quite fit and still like bombing about Oxford on my bike, I really don’t want to know I’m cycling an e-bike until I hit that hill or run out of steam after footie. So, this means relatively lightweight and low-rolling resistance and that the battery doesn’t have to have a huge capacity. It also means that a full gear range would be a benefit.

Bikes get stolen in Oxford all the time and I don’t really want to draw attention to the fact that I’m on an expensive e-bike, so subtlety of e-bike-ness would be a good thing.

Given this, my choice seems to narrow to three options: the Infineum Extreme, Cytronex Claud Butler Urban 500, or attach a Sparticle kit to my choice of hybrid/mtb.

There’s not a lot of discussion about the Infineum Extreme on this board. There was one review where the chap now seems very happy but had problems at first. This reflects the opinion of the local electric bike shop where I was told that the first few they sold had problems but with the latest they haven’t heard a pip. The things I really like about this bike are:
-Tongxin motor is relatively small, relatively lightweight, reported as quiet and with low rolling resistance.
-The LiPo battery is pretty subtle compared to those located behind the seat tube
-the bike weighs 20kg, OK not as light as my old(stolen) Marin Point Reyes but light compared to other e-bikes
-Shimano Alivio groupset, while not Deore XTR, has a recognisable standard of quality. Dart1 shocks aren’t particularly impressive though.
-Bike and battery come with a 2 year guarantee
-can buy from local bike shop, problems dealt with locally
-mtb format means I can throw it around a bit, not worry about curbs and even have some fun on trails (not “big air”, just woodland paths)

Cytronex seems to be much liked on this board and I’m sure with good reason. The componentry of the Claud Butler Urban 500 seems nicer than the Infineum and it uses the same small, quiet and easy-rolling Tongxin motor. The downsides to me compared to the Infineum are:
-230 quid more expensive. If they still did the Trek 7300 for a grand then it would be quite a different story.
-have to remove and carry the battery – this seems to be a real downside? How do the Cytronex people deal with having to carry around the battery when leaving their bike?
-have to buy at a distance, any problems could be tricky
-more of a road-orientated hybrid so might be limited in where I can take it.

The other option is to pick a hybrid MTB myself and fit the Sparticle kit. The advantages to this are that I can spec the bike. However, I would probably have difficulties buying the bike and the e-kit within Cycle2Work scheme so this could work out more expensive. I don’t know about the free-wheeling properties of the Suzhou Bafang motor and the battery is going to look pretty obvious unless I think of some clever disguise.

One of the things that worries me a lot with the these e-bikes is whether 15 mph will really be fast enough? However, as it’s really being bought for when I’m tired and going uphill I’m hoping 15 mph will be pretty good for those times. However, there does seem to be some variation in the top speed of these e-bikes with a Wired magazine review reporting they were in excess of 15 mph. Are the Cytronex's actually faster despite the supposed legal limit?

As you can tell, I’m strongly leaning towards the Infineum but worried by the lack of reviews (even bad ones) and personal experiences. I can, and will, take the Infineum out for a test ride from the local e-bike shop, although testing the Cytronex would be more difficult.

Any comments or thoughts greatly appreciated. I have to commit quite soon.
Thanks loads,
Caleb

 

[themutiny]

Hi Caleb

Your question was tri-partite. I can only respond to one part with any authority, and even that part is somewhat tenuous

The Cytronex system stops working at 15.5mph with the standard 175rpm motor. You can get a 190rpm motor which is obviously a bit faster. Since I don't have the latter, I can't comment except to say that when i originally demo'd the system, I had a 190rpm motor, and it definitely pulls a bit better.

I do tend to Evangelise a bit about the system, but only because I believe that for some people at least, the system is ideal. I believe you may fall into that category, and would urge you to take a test ride - you are, after all noy that far from Winchester, and I think you might enjoy the experience.

THe battery thing is a non-issue with one battery. It's pretty light and unobtrusive. Two batteries might be a different matter...

As above, Winchester-Oxford, hardly a real issue

If the Claud Butler is an issue, try the Ridgeback

Cheers,

Nick

 

[HarryB]

Hi,


.....One of the things that worries me a lot with the these e-bikes is whether 15 mph will really be fast enough? However, as it’s really being bought for when I’m tired and going uphill I’m hoping 15 mph will be pretty good for those times. However, there does seem to be some variation in the top speed of these e-bikes with a Wired magazine review reporting they were in excess of 15 mph. Are the Cytronex's actually faster despite the supposed legal limit?




Caleb

I have the latest 175 rpm motor in my Cytonex and can say it will just pull up to 15mph with a fully charged battery on the flat with no head wind. After the first mile or so it is around 14mph or less with any sort of headwind - up any sort of hill 9-11mph.So I would recommend going for the 190 motor if you go for the Cytonex. I have no experience of the infinium but I guess if they use the same motor it will also lack power and you won't have the option of going for the motor upgrade.

 

[matt-derby]

My two cents

I've got the Cytronex CB Urban 500.

I agree with earlier comments on speed etc, so go for the 190rpm if you decide on this route. Will help you achieve closer to 15mph on any hills/headwind.

Because the CB is a hybrid bike it's happy at cruising around 17/18mph on the flat and on hills it's very quick with the motor freewheeling so to speak, so you're often going faster than the UK limit. MTB tyres would drag you back down to the power assisted territory. Which in turn would require a more powerful system, which in turn means more weight of bike, which then means any weight in the wrong place makes it a low performer for off road use. The only mountain bike option I would consider is the one from Steve Punchard electric mountain bikes, electric bicycle, electric bike kits, folding bicycles But then before you know it you've doubled your budget.

The Infineum would not stand up to any off road use in my opinion, without a few DIY mods to keep the battery in place. I had to wedge the battery firm with a piece of wood found on the floor to be able to test ride it. That solution only worked as long as I didn't go over any bumps. It's a real shame as I've mentioned before, it was the Infineum which first attracted me to this sector.

Mark from Cytronex has mentioned about a kit product coming soon, maybe this is an option for adding it to a suitable off road bike?

other bikes to consider... Rush Trek, Wisper, some of the alien kits this one was impressive for the price Electric Bikes By Poweredbicycles - Aluminium Alloy Frame - Lightweight - Electric Bikes 26 inch wheel - Galileo Hybrid Electric Bike 23kg

Good luck anyway!

 

[flecc]

The lack of Infineum feedback results from more than one factor.

First it's a relatively recent introduction, second it was announced but then failed to appear on time and it was a long time before it eventually appeared. That tends to cause a loss of confidence and interest as a similar mistake by Schwinn showed.

Then when it did appear it had a number of problems, which after the above was very damaging.

Finally there was the identity problem. It was announced only as the Infineum, the fact that it was by the Powacycle people well hidden initially, causing questions when that was discovered. Potential customers like open behaviour from companies and this didn't engender trust. It doesn't help when Powacycle identify themselves through invoices and the like as a different company, Achter I believe, and that in turn owned by a different group name.

I'm quite sure they are a responsible company, but I can think of many very much better ways of launching a product than this.
.

 

[caleb]

Many thanks for the replies.
Caleb

 

[Alex728]

IMO the delays in getting a reliable product to market plus its price point meant the Wisper 905 stole this bikes thunder.

That said, I don't think the obfuscation was intentional - especially as Ultima networks (the parent company) is listed on the London Stock Exchange and all the links between them, Akther and Powacycle are shown on the Ultima Networks website (as they have to be by law) as well as all the other various financial and corporate documents you'd expect to find there.

The wider issue is that "Powacycle" staff (unlike smaller companies which make e-bikes alone) seem to wear many hats (including plastic flower pots ) - which can be both a good and bad thing. Alongside this the conflicting group dynamics involved with both being a corporate listed on the LSE and a British Asian owned family business - it appears a large chunk of the business has been handed down to Wassim Mughal by his Dad - Wassim comes across as a very intelligent and passionate man but also needs the full support of his co-workers (and to support them as well), but it does seem Powacycle is quite a "lean and mean" business for its size..

Powacycle do make reasonable bikes, particularly the Salisbury for its price range, but they need to keep a strict watch on reliability and customer service and I agree with flecc they could handle their marketing a lot better (for instance they still have not set up an official representative for the company on this forum since Carl Percival left).

 

[flecc]

That said, I don't think the obfuscation was intentional - especially as Ultima networks (the parent company) is listed on the London Stock Exchange and all the links between them, Akther and Powacycle are shown on the Ultima Networks website (as they have to be by law) as well as all the other various financial and corporate documents you'd expect to find there.

The problem with this is that it's the wrong way round. When the Infineon was announced there was nothing to show the connections to Powacycle, Akther and Ultima. Only if someone already knew of the existence of Ultima and had tracked from that in the opposite direction would the connections be shown. As you say Alex, not wilful, just unwise.

Customers like to know who they are dealing with. When I bought an e-bike item for a Powacycle model from Powacycle, it was to say the least disconcerting to get an invoice from Akther Computers.
.

 

[Alex728]

Customers like to know who they are dealing with. When I bought an e-bike item for a Powacycle model from Powacycle, it was to say the least disconcerting to get an invoice from Akther Computers.
.

I can see how that could be very confusing.

Ironically coming from an IT/electronics background I knew of Akther Computers (even as a young lad, as they supplied kit to high schools) long before Powacycle!

Even so with all the IT stuff they do it would surely be a very simple task to change the invoice header (especially if the corporate logo is generated locally by the finance software)

I actually work in an group of companies very similar in size/turnover to Akther/Ultima Networks (although not LSE listed) and we are very careful to make sure the "correct brand" turns up on our paperwork.

Nowadays the websites do seem to be a lot clearer....

 

[eTim]

Just to add my 2p's worth - I have the Cytronex Synapse with the 190 motor, without the electric assist this is a fast road bike and I can easily achieve 20-25mph on the flat without assist and around 16-17mph with just the motor pulling me along. Downhill, as I have posted elswhere, I have achieved 50mph. Normal downhills easily see 30-50mph and uphills around 11-12mph with assist, on the steepest hills (around 1 in 6, 14%), the uphill speed drops to 6-8mph with assist but without killing myself and this can be sustained over a distance easily. Overall average around a hilly Hampshire works out around 16mph and this is with me pedaling most of the time, my average speeds are increasing as my fitness gets better.

For short commutes the 190 motor would be no problem, I can eek out around 20-25 miles on one battery and I have a second battery, the Synapse is not suitable for off road though, it just makes a brilliant road bike. And I can convert it to a normal bike with a second wheel, I know another forum member already does this.

I should add that I have no experience of any other type of ebike. Hope this is of some use.