Is battery cutting out at higher voltages a symptom of a failing battery?

Synthman

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Aug 31, 2010
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I've noticed my Phylion battery cut out at around 36v today. A few months ago it would cut out at 33-34v. Range loss is minimal, about 1/4 mile but I will know better when the weather gets back to normal temperature (i.e. cold ;))

The battery is over 4 years old and I've completed nearly 280 charges on it. It still gives a range of 11-12 miles so is still useable for me.
 

Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
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It also takes 2:55 to charge from flat, on a 4a charger. This is a bit quicker than a few months ago.
 

Scottyf

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Feb 2, 2011
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Not to many cycles on the battery but the life of the battery is quite old.
So when drawing power from the battery the voltage sag has probably increased. This combined with the drop in temperture is probably causing the BMS to kick in and cut out.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Cell internal resistance rises with age and usage, so that could be the trigger for the voltage sag that Scotty mentions.
 

Synthman

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Aug 31, 2010
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Well today I once again flattened the battery. 35.7v. I haven't worked out the distance I've travelled, and its still charging but I think it will take just under 3 hours.

So how long would it take to the point it becomes unusable (about 7-8 miles) for my journeys without charging? And are the symptoms cutting out at higher voltage, and shortened charging time?

Do any of you have experience with this happening? And also how long do 10ah lithium polymer batteries take to charge when new (on 2a and 4a chargers) amd also when at the end of their life?

Cheers.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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It's impossible to give an exact period before a battery gets down to a certain mileage range since there are so many variables. However, the symptom of failure is when low voltage cutout occurs under load at the point of your minimum acceptable mileage, something I've experienced previously on lithium batteries.

Charge time varies by make and supplied charger. Most makes 10 Ah batteries take about 4 to 5 hours for their first charge and about 3 to 4 hours for subsequent charges. This often doesn't vary greatly as the battery ages due to the effects of cell chemical age and the battery's electronics needing to equalise the cell charges before cutting off the charge.
 

Scottyf

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Feb 2, 2011
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The higher resting voltage your reading as a cut off is only half the storey.
When you are applying load (Ie gonig up a hill or generally using the electric) the batteries due to their age are pretty old / increased resistance and there for can not offer the same energy they used to.

Chances are when a load is applied the voltage will drop from resting 35.7 to below 30v maybe... of which case the BMS or controller says uh oh somethings wrong the batteries running out of juice.

Which then basically shuts the battery off to prevent further damage.

The fact you have got 4 years out of it and still getting reasonable mileage is good. You can carry on using it untill it gets worse. But eneviatably it wont last forever and will get to a point where it wont fit your needs. Then you'll have to buy another one you tight git. ;-)


The charger question you have to work out total watts.
10ah battery @ nominal 36v (42v fully charged) would be a total of 10x42 = 420watts

Now a 2a charger @ 42v = 2x42 = 84watts per hour
a 4a charger @ 42v = 2x42 = 168watts per hour
So...

420/84 = 5hrs from completly flat
420/168 = 2.5hrs from flat

The above calc does not take into account any loss in effciency so it will take a little longer.

The fastest safe charge for the batter would be a 42v, 10amp charger, taking a bit over 1 hour from flat to charged.
 

Synthman

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Aug 31, 2010
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Oxford
Battery has been flattened two more times recently, both times it measured 36.7v on the meter. They took 2:55 to charge from flat. There has been some different behaviour on the bike though.

When I first had the bike and the battery was about to die, it would cut out suddenly. After a few months, this was no longer the case, the throttle would give less and less power until it gave basically none at all, but I could then rotate the pedals and squeeze the last bit of juice out of it, then turn the key off and on and do the same a couple of times. At that time it was cutting out at between 32-34 volts, which I believe is correct.

Now it's gone back to the behaviour where it loses power suddenly. And that's not all. In the whole time I owned the bike, it has only suffered a low voltage cutofff when going up a hill once, when I attempted a lengthy climb in cold conditions on a battery that I'd already used half the range on.

Since I posted this topic, I've suffered 3 more cutouts. The first was when I went to visit my dad, I made the 4 mile trip to his house, but it cut out at the bottom of the road on the final climb, which wasn't very steep. I pushed it the last 100 yards. The second time, nearly the exact circumstances, but I made the climb and it only cut out as I was pulling into the driveway. The third time I climbed a really steep road of loose gravel, and it cut out when I reached the top.

On all those occasions when I turned power key off and back on, it did not restore the power. Maybe I didn't leave it long enough? But anyway, lifting the seat, undoing and redoing the connector fixed it.

I cleaned the pins of the battery connector with a cotton bud and alcohol, and it got a load of black stuff off, but I never cleaned out the bike connector. I don't think it would have helped anyway, as I experienced the last cutoff after cleaning it.

I'm thinking next time I flatten it, I'm going to disconnect and reconnect the battery and see if there's any more power left.

Aside from that, my battery level indicator on the dash behaves differently. When it was fully charged, the lights NEVER dropped on heavy loads, it only dropped as the range decreased. Now it not only drops to the last light after a few minutes of riding then hitting an incline, but goes straight to the low voltage warning, indicating the cutout symptoms I've experienced. In fact, on two of those cutouts the battery meter was in the low voltage warning as I climbed the incline.

I think the change in performance has been so sudden, that it might not be because of the battery's age. I suspect either a bad connection, or a cell that is faulty??? When I have time I will check over the connections, but I don't fancy stripping the pack to measure each cell individually.

Few other things for Scottyf: (or even flecc)

I haven't got good use out of the battery. I bought the bike new beginning of February 2010. Battery was manufactured in August 2007. It had been tampered with before I received it. The range was less than half of what was advertised. The dealer ripped me off basically.

I know you were joking about me being a tight git about buying a new battery, but it aint that! I haven't had 4 years use out of it, I've had over a year and a half (20 months), and in the 2250-2750 miles I've ridden, it clearly hasn't lasted a reasonable amount of time. The number of charges is due to the 10-12 mile range I've always got from it (not the 25-29 miles advertised), and now its only just 10 miles.

I wish I bought the 12ah SLA version of the bike and saved £200. Would I have got better range with that if it were a new one?

And your last point about 10ah chargers, I've never seen one for an e-bike application before, unless it's a custom one?

Anyway, this now leaves me with a few options. I fancied another e-bike, or even a petrol scooter. But I am also considering a new battery. My dilemma is whether I make a new detailed topic (with pictures and dimensions of my batt case) about that or not?

Anyway, in brief, I won't be able to obtain a new battery that fits. The case is a tight fit under the seat and anything bigger won't do. I've looked at Ping battery packs, the 10ah and 15ah, unfortunately the dimensions listed means that they won't fit in the case. I also wanted a new case as mine is worn from being slid in and out of the bike many times, but can't find that. Looked at BMSbattery, think they aren't as respected as Ping, but the batteries are cheaper. But more importantly, even though the 10ah BMSbattery has two sets of dimensions listed for the pack (the pic says one thing, the detailed description another) it would definitely fit. And it is only £111 without the shipping and duty. If I get exact measurements of their packs and the inside of my battery case, there is a possibility the 15ah will fit. But I don't want more hassle with dodgy batteries.

Could even have a 10ah recell, at £350, with 1 year guarantee. But I can get more capacity at a much cheaper price if I do it myself.
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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It could well be that one cell is failing before the others, or that the whole pack is dropping to cutoff voltage under load through cell resistances. The static voltage straight afterwards is meaningless since there's instant recovery when the load that caused the drop is removed. The early drop indicated by the bike's meter when riding means either one or more cells dud or the whole pack close to end of life.
 

Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
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Sorry to read about your experience with a very old battery.
Not getting the full use must be no fun!

As you have wrote there are a few issues with any battery option that is now left to you. An there is no real cheaper or reasonable offer with out immediate change of battery or case.

If it was me wanting a simple solution I'd probably go with the Bms battery alloy case option and then adapt the older case connections to work with it.

Any option other than the re cell will take a little fiddling with connections.
Even if you gutted the old battery and replaced with larger cells or lipo yod still need a fair amount of solder skills.
 

Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
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Oxford
Well I think if I bought the packs, there would be 4 connections to make to attach it to the input/output connectors on the battery case. If I got the alloy case one (providing it fits) I'd need to find a way to attach it. The rear rack is not an option because I definitely need to keep it clear to carry loads, or the bike would be useless. It will have to go under the seat.

If I can get a new case, I'd buy the pack immediately and fit it, and use both batteries. If not then I'll use the current one for a few more months before disassembling it. I made a trip today, that involved a steep climb, it didn't cut out. When it cut out last week, and the week before, I was battling strong winds and used more of the battery than usual.

I'm going to try and get the internal measurements and sort out some photo hosting so I can put the pics up.
 

Synthman

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Aug 31, 2010
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Oxford
I made a new thread with the pics: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/10116-need-new-36v-battery-my-bike.html

Had a look at the alloy case batteries, at first I thought they would fit but they're a bit wider. I'll have to look under the seat of my bike in daylight and check the space, and see if the existing mounting can be removed. There's no pics of the mounting on the BMSBattery alloys, the charge connector, or the bike connector. Also the key will cause an issue if it can't be bypassed.

I think I will get the shrinkwrap pack and fit it in myself.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Well I think if I bought the packs, there would be 4 connections to make to attach it to the input/output connectors on the battery case. If I got the alloy case one (providing it fits) I'd need to find a way to attach it. The rear rack is not an option because I definitely need to keep it clear to carry loads, or the bike would be useless. It will have to go under the seat.

If I can get a new case, I'd buy the pack immediately and fit it, and use both batteries. If not then I'll use the current one for a few more months before disassembling it. I made a trip today, that involved a steep climb, it didn't cut out. When it cut out last week, and the week before, I was battling strong winds and used more of the battery than usual.

I'm going to try and get the internal measurements and sort out some photo hosting so I can put the pics up.
Could you provide a photo of your battery and one showing its connections. There should be penty of room under your seat because I believe that it was originally designed for three 12v SLAs. A battery has two power wires coming out of it and two charger wires going in to it, so it should be easy to convert for any 36v battery that fits. It might be possible to remove the connector plate from the old battery and connect it to a larger shrink-wrap type. If you could get a bigger battery, it might be possible to increase your controller amps for more power.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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Sorry, just seen your other post. It looks like a 20 aH ping battery would fit in the space, but you'd have to chuck the plastic case and leave the battery in situ for charging. Could you still show a photo of the connector. If it has four conductors, it could be that the ignition switch operates the battery BMS to switch on the battery, so you might have to lose the ignition switch and just plug it in under the seat to switch on. A wiring diagram would be useful if anybody knows where to find one.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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Sorry again. I was able to zoom in and figure out the wiring. It's very straight forward: 2 power wires to a kettle socket and two charge wires spliced in to them, so any battery can be used. You'll have a lot more choice if you chuck the plastic housing, which you don't need, but you'll need to protect the battery from rubbing on what's around it somehow.
 

Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
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Oxford
Hi d8veh

You're correct, the bike was designed for SLA, there was even a SLA version. When I first opened my pack, I was surprised at the empty space at the top, and I believe 3x12v SLA would easily fit in there.

There's no need for a photo, the charger connection is an XLR with 3 pins, but the middle pin is redundant, there is only live and neutral.

The bike connector is similar to a kettle connector, except the centre pin is rotated sideways. The middle pin is also redundant and does nothing. The battery is active all the time and the ignition does not send any signals to the battery. I will take pics of the actual battery and put it in my other topic if necessary.

Nice idea about the 20ah Ping, I reckon I'll struggle to use all that, unless my controller is uprated to pull more amps. I can't find the controller, I suspect it is below the floorboard as that is the only place I haven't looked yet. However, I am definitely not willing to charge the battery on the bike, that would be a massive inconvenience as I will have to have a wire going into the front garden, and I can't get the bike into the back.

When daylight comes I will take another look under the seat and see how much space is between the frames.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
OK that makes the choice a bit easier. This one will fit but has the kettle socket at the opposite end to the handle, so you'd need to make a short extension lead. It might be possible to run the wires internally and re-moiunt the socket on the top. You'd also have to put some polystyrene or foam packing down the hole so that it doesn't rattle.
36V15Ah Li-Ion Alloy Shell EBike Battery Pack - BMSBATTERY
 

Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
417
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Oxford
Yes that would fit if it were rotated sideways. There is actually a lot of slack on my bike connector wire lead, and it would reach anywhere in the battery housing, though I better check that again.

Since that battery has it own fixing slot, I could remove the old one and mount it there, but I will have to check the clearance again. The other thing is the compartment is exposed at the bottom, and at the back. I will get a picture tomorrow.

Also concerned about the 'kettle connector' because if it really is, the orientation of the centre pin might cause difficulties because on mine it is horizontal, not vertical. I could change the connector or remove the centre pin though.
 

Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
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Oxford
I had a look and took some pictures, which is going in the other topic shortly. The battery will have to be no bigger than the size of my current case or it won't slot between the frame. The power cable is clipped to the frame so it can be moved easily. The current mounts are screwed onto a plate resting on the frame.