Is BEBA doing a good job for the e-bike industry?

[Kudoscycles]

I originally put this posting on another thread but it is so pivotal to the growth of our industry that I think it deserves it's own thread.The original posting was in response to a comment about BEBA by Bob@Juicy Bikes.
Bob,I cannot agree with you about BEBA,I find these trade type organisations tend to try to tell us all how to run our businesses and that is often uncompetitive....As far as quality is concerned I think the best guide is whether the cycle meets EN15194,I was involved with the testing of the Kudos King bike and the test is both thorough and extensive,BEBA appears to me a paper tiger organisation,I am finding as an individual company I am doing the work that BEBA should be doing-
1. Why is BEBA not pushing our government to sign up to EN15194,without this commitment it is allowing rebel importers to import bikes of dubious quality from Asia into the UK,sell these bikes dirt cheap with no spares support and then walk away from future responsibilities-these low quality importers are doing a lot of harm to the credibility of the e-bike industry.
2. Why is BEBA not organising events which display the advantages and benefits of electric bikes,I am finding Kudos is having to sell the concept of electric bikes before we present our bikes,there is still so much incorrect perceptions about these bikes which needs to be overcome-Kudos and Spencer Ivy were the only e-bike importers present at the recent Bridgestone Rally on the mall in London-between us we must have organised 1000 plus trial rides.
3. Why has BEBA not organised a national electric bike show,we are all having to go to the NEC Cycle show late September,but the NEC is a very expensive venue it alienates a lot of the smaller e-bike companies who cannot afford the costs- I am trying to organise another venue that we can all afford,the Tour de Presteigne is a good event but the location is difficult for many to access.
4. The chairman of BEBA is also the MD of Wisper Bikes,such a conflict of interest,hardly independent.
5. BEBA is openly against direct internet trading,this is clearly an attempt to defend the high margins enjoyed by some importers but the public are not fools they can see when they are not getting value for money-this is like King Canute trying tohold back the tide.
Dave
MD,Kudos Cycles.

When BEBA genuinely represents the interests of the e-bike industry and it's customers I will look at joining it but feel at this time Kudos and it's customers are best served by us remaining independent.

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[eddieo]

Well at least they are doing something....

This must surely offer some sort of protection for the consumer, as no fly by night/evil bay/come today gone tomorrow operation is going to be allowed to join? Thereby offering some stability to purchasers, and a guarantee of some sort of trading standards?

 

[banbury frank]

Hi


I total Agree we need to start somewhere and David the Chairman has made a good job off Wisper in the UK for a long time

we need a good solid base in the UK and a BEBA to fight for Practical E bike legislation in the Uk like throttle and pedalec and higher power limits the 15 MPH will not change soon BUT 20 Mph wold be Nice




WELL done David BEBA and wisper

Frank

 

[JuicyBike]

Well at least they are doing something....

This must surely offer some sort of protection for the consumer, as no fly by night/evil bay/come today gone tomorrow operation is going to be allowed to join? Thereby offering some stability to purchasers, and a guarantee of some sort of trading standards?

Absolutely!
Our last trip down to the House of Lords was hard work, and costly, but we helped broaden their Lordships minds... a little!

 

[Kudoscycles]

Eddie....the biggest protection would be to insist that every BEBA member only sold bikes that certified EN15194....that would eliminate the 'fly by nights' immediately....perhaps BEBA would consider that? It has parallels with the kit car industry,at one time all sorts of dangerous over powered rubbish was allowed on the road,when the government introduced SVA testing all the rubbish disappeared overnight and the industry had to get it's act together.
Dave
Kudos Cycles

 

[Kudoscycles]

I personally disagree with more power,the 250watt limit is more than enough. After all the idea is to offer pedal assist-all of the customers I have spoken to still want a level of fitness they do still want some rider input.
I also disagree with more speed,remember these bikes can be ridden by 14 year old teenagers-I don't want a teenager of that age doing 20mph down a cycle track. It also starts to involve a crowd of boy racer types who would do harm to the independence that we currently enjoy on these bikes. The Kudos cycle is enjoyed by all who ride them,most are surprised that they can choose the level of power assist according to their requirements. It's also a good engineering challenge to provide adequate hill climbing ability within the constraint of 250 watt.
However,I do agree about a throttle-it aids safety when moving from stationery and also allows those who are struggling to pedal to use the bikes.
Dave
Kudos Cycles

 

[banbury frank]

Hi

OK then allow more power and speed to over 18 year old on the road only

Strictly not on the pavement


And as for those 14 year old the are already flying down the pavements at 20 Mph +++

on non electric Bikes

Most E bikers who pedal assist are probably doing 20 Mph anyway by adding pedal power over 15 mph

Frank

 

[flecc]

I personally disagree with more power,the 250watt limit is more than enough. After all the idea is to offer pedal assist

I also disagree with more speed,remember these bikes can be ridden by 14 year old teenagers-I don't want a teenager of that age doing 20mph down a cycle track.

I agree on both the speed and power limits Dave, though wouldn't particularly single out teenagers as dangerous. There's no shortage of adult louts in Britain.

The present 25 kph limit, 15.6 mph and often referred to as 16 mph by the DfT, together with the allowed 10% tolerance gives 17 mph easily. That's plenty, those who want to emulate club sport riders should get club sport fitness first and ride unpowered. Being that fit is accompanied by the improved responses and reactions commensurate with higher performance. A short cut to that with higher performance motors can be dangerous, I don't want to be hit by an unfit slow reacting 22 stone hulk on a heavy e-bike travelling at 20 mph. Such people should buy a motor vehicle, be tested for their safety and proficiency and accept the restrictions on those that are in the interests of everyone's safety.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi Flecc

That 22 stone hulk on a Panasonic crank drive E bike can easily pedal at 20 mph

with very little effort on the flat TODAY and Properly Is

Hopefully the extra exercise will help him get fit lose weight and ride at 25 MPH

Frank

 

[cwah]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with the 25km/h speed limitation on bike.

I'm for now riding a non electric bike (sent back my slow one) and have an average speed of 15-20km/h. And I feel it's really dangerous on the road because I'm way too slow compared to the cars surrounding me.

Today I was riding and I've seen so many cars irritated by my speed. I do my best to stay "safe" on the road and ride on the bus lane.. But even THE BUS IS WAY FASTER THAN ME and try to pass over me...

Some cars act like I'm 'non-existant' and just run like I wasn't allowed to ride on the lane. Many times I could have an accident if wasn't so cautious. Sometime I just want to run on the walking road but it's forbidden.

The truth is that bikes are too fast on the walking road and too slow on the "car road". Why limit our speed at 25km/h when no cars around me run at this speed? That makes everything dangerous and I just don't understand.

This low speed seriously handicap me. Unless I'm on bike lane (which is rare), running at 15-20km/h is dangerous because I'm too slow. I avoided a tunnel because cars were way too fast.

I do believe that for my own safety, bike speed on the road should be at least at 30km/h. And weather I'm at 20km/h or 40km/h, being crushed by a car would have the same terrible consequence...

Any though?

 

[NRG]

... The Kudos cycle is enjoyed by all who ride them,most are surprised that they can choose the level of power assist according to their requirements. It's also a good engineering challenge to provide adequate hill climbing ability within the constraint of 250 watt.
.
Dave
Kudos Cycles

Pedantic point Dave, users can choose the level of speed assist not power. Unless your bikes are limited to something like 11 amps battery draw Maximum all your bikes will have greater than 250w output when climbing hills.

 

[BrianSmithers]

I do believe that for my own safety, bike speed on the road should be at least at 30km/h. And weather I'm at 20km/h or 40km/h, being crushed by a car would have the same terrible consequence...

Any though?

As you invited thoughts. I want to see a clear definition maintained between a bicycle and a motor vehicle and what you seem to need is one of those. Of course, you then elect to pay tax, insurance and for an MOT (and need a licence) but that's the consequence of a faster vehicle.

We would do ourselves a huge disservice if we lost the money saving advantages of a pedelec bike by pushing the boundaries until the politicians see us as a revenue stream.

- Brian
Kudos Tourer

 

[cwah]

I didn't mean to transform it to motor vehicle. Just to adjust the speed limitation to make it safer on the road. 25km/h max speed make it too dangerous.

If we have a limitation of 35km/h like in US/Canada, road would be way more safe.

 

[funkylyn]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with the 25km/h speed limitation on bike.

I'm for now riding a non electric bike (sent back my slow one) and have an average speed of 15-20km/h. And I feel it's really dangerous on the road because I'm way too slow compared to the cars surrounding me.

Today I was riding and I've seen so many cars irritated by my speed. I do my best to stay "safe" on the road and ride on the bus lane.. But even THE BUS IS WAY FASTER THAN ME and try to pass over me...

Some cars act like I'm 'non-existant' and just run like I wasn't allowed to ride on the lane. Many times I could have an accident if wasn't so cautious. Sometime I just want to run on the walking road but it's forbidden.

The truth is that bikes are too fast on the walking road and too slow on the "car road". Why limit our speed at 25km/h when no cars around me run at this speed? That makes everything dangerous and I just don't understand.

This low speed seriously handicap me. Unless I'm on bike lane (which is rare), running at 15-20km/h is dangerous because I'm too slow. I avoided a tunnel because cars were way too fast.

I do believe that for my own safety, bike speed on the road should be at least at 30km/h. And weather I'm at 20km/h or 40km/h, being crushed by a car would have the same terrible consequence...

Any though?

But the speed limit is only for pedal assist......you can go as fast as you care to pedal....so I dont really understand what you are getting at ?

After all, a bike is a bike and a car is a car......you pay your money and make your choice......of course a bus or a car is going to go faster than you, no one expects a cyclist to be gaily pedalling along at the same speed as other motorized traffic surely......
Thats just a fact of life that all road users are at some danger from other less vigilant road users, whether you are walking, jogging, cycling, driving a car, bus, lorry or what have you.....

If you choose to cycle on the public highway then you take that risk along with all other road users, and going faster....40kph for example isnt going to stop you having an accident, just probably hurt you even more......

Lynda

 

[eddieo]

I live in London and I can assure you the faster you go the more susceptible you are to incidents......Very different scenario in the great wild yonder...

 

[BrianSmithers]

I didn't mean to transform it to motor vehicle. Just to adjust the speed limitation to make it safer on the road. 25km/h max speed make it too dangerous.

If we have a limitation of 35km/h like in US/Canada, road would be way more safe.

But in the legal sense, increasing the maximum unassisted speed MAKES it a motor vehicle, regardless whether it is driven by an electric motor or a petrol driven one. You can have a faster bike if you want to, you just have to pay the taxes, MOT, insurance etc. The Pedelec industry in the UK would not be serving our best needs by selling you the fast bike you want (for public road use) UNLESS it is a registered motor vehicle.

Dave at Kudos has a very valid point that a European standard (EN15194) is already defined and a compliant bike is NOT an motor vehicle and therefore escapes all that red tape and cost which makes for a cheap form of transport.

So my point is that you can have your faster bike right now but I think the real issue is that you don't want to pay the extra costs for your moped. I think yours is a minority need. Most of us don't need moped speeds and benefit from riding something that is legally classified as a bicycle. Keeping our bikes defined as a bicycle also helps keeps us under the tax man's radar.

- Brian

 

[JuicyBike]

I believe BEBA's main efforts are to influence the regulations regarding the speed of throttles, putting forward a case to the Dept. of Transport regarding the safety benefits of throttles able to power a bike to the full 15mph, and not just walking pace.

That's a little more involved than simply supporting the standard - it's about influencing the standard, and that sort of effort needs the support and engagement of many manufacturers. No single manufacturer / importer / retailer can do that on their own.

 

[flecc]

I didn't mean to transform it to motor vehicle. Just to adjust the speed limitation to make it safer on the road. 25km/h max speed make it too dangerous.

If we have a limitation of 35km/h like in US/Canada, road would be way more safe.

I fully understand your point about speed differentials, but those are intrinsic to bicycles anyway. Those who aren't club/sport biased cyclists commonly have a cycling speed of around 12 mph/20 kph, often even slower.

Higher motorised speeds with the weight of bike and rider, without the rider being tested for proficiency or traceable in any way is unacceptable. As pointed out, you can have all the speed you like up to 45 kph on a bicycle based machine for your own safety, but for everyone else's safety you must make yourself known to be safe and be traceable. That is done by type approving your bike to ensure it's safe at the higher speeds and registering it with a rear plate to make yourself traceable. Such bikes are on the market already with EU type approval from makers like Riese and Muller, BikeTec and Derby/Kalkhoff.

So no-one is denying you what you require.

You mention the USA and Canada, but they have far more cavalier attitudes to road safety. The USA proportionally has three times our UK road accident death rates. Are you seriously suggesting we do things their way and kill an extra 6000 UK residents every year to get this tiny speed advantage for you?

 

[Ultra Motor]

Dave,
Thanks for your points, responses below:

1) Our recommendation through ETRA was to harmonise with the EN15194 regulations. At the same time we also put forward that there needs to be a separate category to support power on demand bikes as in many circumstances this is required.
2) We would love to put on more events, however everyone involved also runs their own companies and have limited time. These events also require an investment and BEBA is funded by its members running at very low cost.
3) We are talking about something for 2012
4) No-one else has stepped up as chaiman. Who else can you suggest would run the association? The organization is run with decisions made from all members- so is fair.
5) Not true. This is because there is no local support when all is sold online. What happens when your bike has a problem? Yes you could ship it back, but it’s a inconvenience and bikes get damaged in transit. Look at ALL other motor industries, cars- multiple nationwide dealers, same with motorbikes, motorhomes, even bike shops! Its like that for a reason.

On an additional note to speed etc. I think for the pedelec category 250W and 25kph is sufficient. And agree with the above points that this shouldn't attract attention and suddenly require taxation, license etc. However- there is an argument to introduce the Mofa category or similar

Thanks
Mark

 

[Kudoscycles]

Mark,
Thanks for your succinct replies.
Just a couple of questions.
1. Are BEBA commited to all electric bikes sold in the UK meeting EN15194 certification?
2. What upcoming events are BEBA supporting to promote to the public the understanding of electric bikes and thereby expand this industry?-recent events have highlighted so much work needed in this area.
Dave
KudosCycles