Is this the begining of the end for my Wisper battery?

[z0mb13e]

That looks good, just the BMS current drain and normal early stage settling.

So it looks like it's back to either a cell collapsing under applied load or a weak connection, bike or battery, also failing under load.

I am toying with the idea of building a load test so I can bench test the battery. Any suggestions or recommendations? Anyone know the typical current draw for a 250w hub motor under light to moderate load?

In the mean time I will extract the controller and open it up to see if there is any corrosion and continuity test all the connections as well. I will also have a closer look at the speed selector circuit board and make sure it is still intact. Maybe give it a quick reflow with a soldering iron and some flux.

While I'm at it I will have a look inside the battery case for anything obvious.

If all looks ok then I will put it all back together and try again.

 

[shemozzle999]

As flecc says, the battery appears to have taken a charge and is stable under no load conditions.

Does it have condition monitor leds on the battery and if it does are they all illuminated when the battery is turned on by the switch and the test button pressed?

Under load conditions the internal battery wiring, key switch, fuse and output connector, followed by the mating half of the output connector to the main controller supply wires must be in sound condition to deliver power to the controller, the next step on the route.

You now have to test the battery under load and for that you need to have the control system fired up in sequence.

If any part of the sequence fails it needs to be fixed before going onto the next part of the sequence.

The main controller consists of two main parts:
The power delivery circuit and the user input circuit which controls the power delivery circuit.

From reading your operating manual I think these are the following steps for sucessful operation:

1. Turn on the key switch - provides the battery supply to the main controller
2. Press the throttle (red button) on/off switch - the throttle battery level lights are illuminated showing the main controller now has power on it and gives an indication of real voltage level of the battery.
3. Press hi/lo illuminated buttons to select level of assistance - the main controller requires one of these must be selected before allowing outputs from the pedalec sensor or throttle to become active.
4. Select boost button (green button) on/off (if fitted to your model) - adjusts maximum power delivery level requires one to be selected before allowing outputs from the pedalec sensor or throttle to become active (if fitted).
You now have two options:
5a. Twist throttle to give motor power - outputs a variable voltage level to the main controller to switch power to the motor.
5b. Turn crank to activate pedelec sensor and or overide the pedelec sensor by twisting the throttle - upon turning delivers output pulse signals to the main controller to switch power to the motor .

Ofcourse the motor and its wiring also needs to be of sound condition for the bike to work.

From what you have already said it looks like the problem is the hi/lo switch unit is not operating correctly hence my suggestion to swap it out or borrow an identical one or check the connections between the box and the main controller first.

 

[z0mb13e]

Does it have condition monitor leds on the battery and if it does are they all illuminated when the battery is turned on by the switch and the test button pressed?

Yes the lights on the battery all light up when the battery is switched on or the test button is pressed.

Under load conditions the internal battery wiring, key switch and fuse must be in sound condition to deliver power to the controller, the next step on the route.

I will check when I open the battery.

You now have to test the battery under load and for that you need to have the control system fired up in sequence.

The problem here is I don't know if the fault is in the battery or the bike. Hence the desire to bench test the battery.

If any part of the sequence fails it needs to be fixed before going onto the next part of the sequence.

The main controller consists of two main parts:
The power delivery circuit and the user input circuit which controls the power delivery circuit.

From reading your operating manual I think these are the following steps for sucessful operation:

1. Turn on the key switch - provides the battery supply to the main controller
2. Press the throttle (red button) on/off switch - the throttle battery level lights are illuminated showing the main controller now has power on it and gives an indication of real voltage level of the battery.
3. Press hi/lo illuminated buttons to select level of assistance - the main controller requires one of these must be selected before allowing outputs from the pedalec sensor or throttle to become active.
4. Select boost button on/off (if fitted to your model) - adjusts maximum power delivery level requires one to be selected before allowing outputs from the pedalec sensor or throttle to become active (if fitted).
You now have two options:
5a. Twist throttle to give motor power - outputs a variable voltage level to the main controller to switch power to the motor.
6b. Turn crank to activate pedelec sensor and or overide the pedelec sensor by twisting the throttle - upon turning delivers output pulse signals to the main controller to switch power to the motor .

Ofcourse the motor and its wiring also needs to be of sound condition for the bike to work.

The bike has been working fine for a long time, this is a very recent issue. Everything works until I turn the throttle, then everything shuts down.

From what you have already said it looks like the problem is the hi/lo switch unit is not operating correctly hence my suggestion to swap it out or borrow an identical one.

The power level selector has been stuck on hi for about 2 years so I don't see that as the main culprit (though I could be wrong). I do intend to take it apart and check the circuit board.

 

[flecc]

I am toying with the idea of building a load test so I can bench test the battery. Any suggestions or recommendations? Anyone know the typical current draw for a 250w hub motor under light to moderate load?

Around 4 to 8 amps is light to moderate loading.

Because I had some around, I've used three 12 volt 55 watt car headlight bulbs in series in the past as a load. That's a 4.6 amp load using just the main beam filaments, and about double that using both filaments. Only do the latter briefly since both filaments lit will soon destroy the bulbs.

£1.25 each at Amazon for example.
.

 

[z0mb13e]

Around 4 to 8 amps is light to moderate loading.

Because I had some around, I've used three 12 volt 55 watt car headlight bulbs in series in the past as a load. That's a 4.6 amp load using just the main beam filaments, and about double that using both filaments. Only do the latter briefly since both filaments lit will soon destroy the bulbs.

£1.25 each at Amazon for example.
.

Blinding idea! (No pun intended) I have a box full of old VW head lamps which are 12v 55w.

I was busy trawling ebay for 100w Rheostats. Plenty cheaply available from China (with the attendant waiting time) but serious money if you want to buy one from the uk. But with light bulbs I can test the battery for free!

 

[shemozzle999]

Yes, checking the battery under load using flecc's method is an excellent idea. It can be done without opening up the battery which should always be done with caution.

 

[shemozzle999]

"The bike has been working fine for a long time, this is a very recent issue"

I have taken the time to read your previous posts regarding your bike and now have a clearer history.
You have obviously enjoyed your experience with the bike.
The bike, Wisper and Atomosphere have served you well over the lifetime of the bike but things have been slowly appearing over time.
I think it is time to invest some money on the bike in the form of a mot from a dealer who I am sure could rectify all the problems quickly and return it to its original state and give you several more years of good service, a small price to pay.

 

[z0mb13e]

"The bike has been working fine for a long time, this is a very recent issue"

I have taken the time to read your previous posts regarding your bike and now have a clearer history.
You have obviously enjoyed your experience with the bike.
The bike, Wisper and Atomosphere have served you well over the lifetime of the bike but things have been slowly appearing over time.
I think it is time to invest some money on the bike in the form of a mot from a dealer who I am sure could rectify all the problems quickly and return it to its original state and give you several more years of good service, a small price to pay.

I could do that... at some cost (there are no dealers near me (that I know of)) or I could try and fix it myself.

I enjoy the challenge

 

[shemozzle999]

Here are a couple:


Metric Bikes
Wisper Dealer
Metric Bikes
58 Ashley Road,
Bournemouth
Dorset
BH1 4LL

Tel 01202 302749
Bournemouth@wisperbikes.com

or

CycleX Ltd Full Service Wisper Centre
Brookley Road
Brockenhurst
Hants
SO42 7RR

01590 623407
newforest@wisperbikes.com

 

[neptune]

I like flecc`s idea with the headlamp bulbs . For 24 volt systems , beg a couple of lorry headlamp bulbs off a driver . Another idea is to make your own rheostat . Using Ohms law , and deciding the current you want to draw you can calculate the required resistance . so on a 36 volt battery if you wish to draw 6amps , you need a resistance of 6 Ohms . If you can obtain an old storage heater element , use your multimeter to determine how much of the element wire you need . Then you just need two screw terminals and some cable . Wind the wire on a ceramic former , or mount it on a base board so it does not touch anything . I t will get HOT .

 

[shemozzle999]

I think there are multiple problems with z0mbie's bike Neptune and feel they can only be sorted by Wisper as they are bespoke parts.
1. The hi/lo selector box has been exposed to the elements and z0mbie is a fair and foul weather rider.
2. The pedelec sensor is intermittent and he has had a lot of problems with the bottom bracket, either it is not aligned properly or the cabling has been disturbed.
3. Finally, the reason for this post, the battery has question marks against it due to age and mileage and a Wisper full service centre will be able to check it out.
They should have access to the parts and test equipement and I feel could quickly get the bike up and running like new and he can have many more years of enjoyment from it.

 

[shemozzle999]

One final thought - you mentioned you had brake problems in an older post - my manual states they should be adjusted so they start to bite at approximately half way position so that the motor cut off switch is not operated prematurely - might be worth checking this.
I will check to see on my bike tomorrow if you can unplug them to eliminate them from the circuit.

 

[z0mb13e]

Here are a couple:


Metric Bikes
Wisper Dealer
Metric Bikes
58 Ashley Road,
Bournemouth
Dorset
BH1 4LL

Tel 01202 302749
Bournemouth@wisperbikes.com

Oooohhh... I didn't know about that place. Will have to check it out! Thanks!

 

[z0mb13e]

I like flecc`s idea with the headlamp bulbs . For 24 volt systems , beg a couple of lorry headlamp bulbs off a driver . Another idea is to make your own rheostat . Using Ohms law , and deciding the current you want to draw you can calculate the required resistance . so on a 36 volt battery if you wish to draw 6amps , you need a resistance of 6 Ohms . If you can obtain an old storage heater element , use your multimeter to determine how much of the element wire you need . Then you just need two screw terminals and some cable . Wind the wire on a ceramic former , or mount it on a base board so it does not touch anything . I t will get HOT .

I had considered making a rheostat as I thought I had a reel of resistance wire kicking around somewhere but it seems to have vanished along with my collection of old headlight bulbs, I only found 2 Even the spares for the new* car are all gone

Hmmm... heating element you say...

That makes me wonder what the resistance of my car battery drop tester is - probably too low but worth a look...

*I've just realised the car I consider new is over a decade old! I guess that's what happens when you drive a 40 year old car/van.

 

[flecc]

That Amazon link I gave above has cheap bulbs, £1.25 for single filament and scroll further down for £1.48 twin filament ones.

 

[10mph]

z0mb13e,
Here is what you need on eBay

Get the 1Kw rating or higher. Stretch it out between screws on a wooden board to make 6 or 8 equal length parallel lengths. I found just twisting a turn tightly round each screw with a pair of pliers gave a good contact.

Then you can check current supplied by a 36V battery. The wires will get hot - so be careful. The resistance increases a little and the current falls slightly as they get hot.

 

[z0mb13e]

One final thought - you mentioned you had brake problems in an older post - my manual states they should be adjusted so they start to bite at approximately half way position so that the motor cut off switch is not operated prematurely - might be worth checking this.
I will check to see on my bike tomorrow if you can unplug them to eliminate them from the circuit.

That was the front brake. Various adjusters had seized up. Not even soaking it in penetrating oil worked. In the end I replaced it with a Clarke S2. That reminds me I still have a set of sintered pads going begging for a Tektro IOX if anyone can make use of them...

 

[shemozzle999]

Oooohhh... I didn't know about that place. Will have to check it out! Thanks!

I would take the bike with you - they might have a battery you could drop in to see if that cures all the problems.

 

[shemozzle999]

Unplugging the bike brake connectors on my bike took them out of the control circuit the throttle and pedelec operation was uneffected.
If Wisper have not reversed their function it should apply to your bike also. If either brake switch is faultly by unplugging them it should remove the fault, maybe worth trying on your bike.
In the meantime, from a check of the "where do you live google map" it appears there is a fellow member called Tenderbehind located near Christchurch with the same bike as yours. If you have no luck with the dealer maybe you could PM him/her and see if it would be possible to try a known working battery in your bike.

 

[z0mb13e]

I have completed a battery discharge test. Graph of results attached.

The battery powered the ~165W load for 2 hours give or take. So rough and ready, that would make it about 330Wh compared to the original 504Wh or about 65%. Looking at the current over the 2 hours, starting with 4.6A down to 4.16A at cutout gives an average of 4.3A or about 8.6Ah compared to the original 14Ah or about 61% capacity.

So it looks like the battery is ok (given the obsevered capacity).

Interestingly the red light on the battery never came on during testing (I checked it every few minutes just out of interest). There was one green light on (when I pushed the test button) almost all of the way through the test (except for the first few minutes when more mights were on).

The voltage measured just before cut out was 32.4v.