justin beba.... or just out of beba?

[Wisper Bikes]

David,
With regard to S class bikes I will go with the flow...I assume they will be on road use only,like in Germany? It just seems crazy to buy a bicycle which you cannot legally use like other bicycles.
I have ridden one,they are fast but actually not that much faster than the current Panasonic hub drive bikes and all the BPM motored bikes. The freedom to go to 28 mph is seen by some as being an advantage but so many of the 250 watt bikes are now de restricted that the advantage is less.
But I will make and sell S class if they become legal,KTM already have S class bikes and the Chinese will I am sure make their versions.
Am currently exhibiting at the classic car show,NEC,I wanted to take some ebikes but the stand is full.
Regards
Dave

Hi Dave, you are correct, they will not be allowed anywhere a moped cant go so Cycle-paths and Bridle ways will probably be out.

De restricted 250W bikes are surely non registered S class bikes, there is no lower limit only a 500W max, interestingly the Bosch S class is only 350W. IMO the big down side to speed pedelecs is the big loss of range.

Good luck at the show!

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I can see how the new regulations will permit type approving and registering of these vehicles because I don't think there is a way to stop it, but whether they will be allowed on the roads will boil down to how much it will cost the government to introduce this new class of vehicle onto the roads of the UK.

I envisage atleast the need of a very expensive and lengthy advertising campaign prior to introduction to make existing road users aware of the new class and to meet the DfT's responsibility to maintain the safety of all road users and pedestrians.

It certainly won't be a Zero Cost proposal unlike the the EPAC modifications, which are.

Thats a really good point Shemozzle, currently we are simply pushing for the the same regs as in Germany to be introduced here, which is practically no cost. We do need to consider letting other road users know that what looks like a bicycle could be closing in on them at 45kph even up hill.

All the best
David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

If specific s-class law comes into force in the future, will existing s-class bikes 'on the road' get a free pass and what about less obvious home build kits? As discussed ad infinutm how wil it be enforced? - as visually the difference between a 250w and 350w pedelec bicycle would be hard to spot - considering the police has gone over to speed / average speed cameras as a means on over 30+mph speed management/revenue Skinner boxes.

Hi Wicky,

To answer your question re existing S Class, bikes, as long as they conform to the new regs I would imagine they will be fine. I will ask the question though.

Enforcement would be almost impossible, unless of course there is a serious accident, where the bike would be taken for inspection.

All the best
David

 

[Wicky]

"Enforcement would be almost impossible, unless of course there is a serious accident, where the bike would be taken for inspection."

Whenever I've been involved in an RTA on my motorcycle and have needed carting to hospital (IIRC any accident that requires hospital attentendance is classed as serious injury*) the police have had the bike recovered by private contractors i.e garage and put in storage.

Not sure what level of serious accident (death?) would trigger them taking a more active interest in vehicle mechanics.

* The police definition of serious injury covers casualties admitted to hospital, as well as those with specific types of injury (for example fractures or severe cuts). This means that in theory all patients in HES admitted following a road traffic accident should also appear as seriously injured casualties in the police data.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9279/rrcgb2011-06.pdf

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I am not sure Wicky, but I would imagine if injury or death of a third party was involved and/or the police were considering prosecution, a vehicle inspection would be pretty standard.

I would assume they would always use a private contractor to remove a vehicle if the driver/rider was incapacitated and not able to look after the logistics themselves.

 

[JohnCade]

In some cases the only way to tell if a bike has been modified to go faster and it was damaged and unridable would be to plug in a diagnostic device and interrogate the software. I doubt they could or would do that unless the case was very serious, and suspicion that the bike was doing an illegal speed prior to the accident was high.

 

[Wicky]

Has any pedelec, wether technicaly legal or not, been taken in for examination?

Even though there aren't relatively many bicycles with electric motors surely one in the past decade or so must have been involved in a accident in the UK, and with a motor on it feasibly could have aroused police curiosity.

 

[Twangman]

David,are you skipping yet? Good luck with the hip-hop!!!!! Joking apart I hope you repair soon from your op.
What is BEBA'S view on the unlimited weight limits. I think the DfT are looking from the wrong direction,the document seems to assume that say an 80 kg e-scooter had only 250 watt of power it would be self policing,ie the bike would barely move itself,so nobody would sell one or want one.
However if that same bike had an 800 watt motor with a 200 watt sticker it would be a lethal machine on promenades and/or cycle tracks but the police would be forced to accept its illegality without any means of accurately determining the power of the motor.
Google 'e-scooter'or 'e-moped' and you come up with many motorbikes that the sellers claim are bicycle legal,we all know this cannot be so,but the police and trading standards seem weak when trying to stop their sales as bicycles....they all claim ride by 14 year olds,no tax,no insurance,no helmet,no registration,one even claims that you cannot be breathalysed riding one,suggesting that riding it is drunk is ok! Has BEBA tried to get the DfT to act against these machines?
I like these e-mopeds but they should be registered as motor vehicles a la mopeds,the bike made by Zhejiang Nicom is a lovely moped,800 watts,about 60 KGs weight,30 mph speed. They are cheaper than most S class bikes and would appear to offer so much more,they would be ideal for those with mobility problems,including a throttle-I think we should embrace these mopeds as part of the pedelecs umbrella,as long as they are supplied legally and on-road use only.
I am supportive of throttles,although the dominance of the German market will make these difficult to provide.
I am against the S class,it seems to me providing an on-road only class is a pointless bike,they cannot be used as bicycles,ie with their freedom of usage but don't offer the power and adaptability of e-mopeds.However current illegal S class usage in the UK shows that such users don't really care about their illegal usage so they probably will continue to use them to ride down promenades and cycle tracks,that may be a problem for us all if there was an accident and we were all 'tarred with the same brush',it is especially critical whilst the DfT is considering the future of e-biking.
Good luck.
Regards
KudosDave

You may not want one but I am sure their is a market for them. The major reason apart from the price that the e bike market is small in the UK is because we can not go at a decent speed when on main rds without breaking the law. It is crazy that I can l can legally freewheel down a very steep hill here I live at 30mph but when I get to the bottom have to trundle along at 15mph while legally getting overtaken by regular cyclists even though derestricted my bike can easily cruise at 22mph. Surley haveing a bike which speed wise is less that of a moped but can keep up with a regular commuter cyclist is not such a bad thing?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Has any pedelec, wether technicaly legal or not, been taken in for examination?

Even though there aren't relatively many bicycles with electric motors surely one in the past decade or so must have been involved in a accident in the UK, and with a motor on it feasibly could have aroused police curiosity.

We were told a very interesting story about a case in Germany by Bosch yesterday, I'm trying to find the full details, so I can share on here. More as soon as I have it.

 

[Kudoscycles]

You may not want one but I am sure their is a market for them. The major reason apart from the price that the e bike market is small in the UK is because we can not go at a decent speed when on main rds without breaking the law. It is crazy that I can l can legally freewheel down a very steep hill here I live at 30mph but when I get to the bottom have to trundle along at 15mph while legally getting overtaken by regular cyclists even though derestricted my bike can easily cruise at 22mph. Surley haveing a bike which speed wise is less that of a moped but can keep up with a regular commuter cyclist is not such a bad thing?

In London we only hear about the deaths of cyclists but there are innumerable smaller accidents that are so common they hardly get a mention. Cyclists in general are now just too fast,I am not talking about e-bikes,i am talking about any bike that cruises at 20 mph plus.
One of the most common accidents is the car door flung open in front of a cyclist,at 15 mph you may have a chance of stopping,at 25 mph it hurts.not maybe the cyclists fault but it is the cyclist who gets hurt.
Cyclists routinely weave round pedestrians on zebra crossings,they don't want to lose that built up momentum,fixed wheels are pretty much committed to maintaining the speed.
Boris's so called super highways are effectively race tracks for light sports bikes to travel as fast as possible...woe betide any pedestrian if he delays on that blue hallowed strip.
Why do we all want to travel so fast,I thought cycling was meant to be a leisurely support not turning us all into professional Wiggo style cyclists,why this need for speed.
The extra help to get up steep hills,good tyres and good brakes,good handling of the bike but many seem obsessed by speed and power,the 'my bike is faster than your bike' syndrome.
KudosDave

 

[RobF]

Too many cyclists are quick to bellow at the slightest discourtesy from a car driver, yet think it's fine to ride their bike on the road like they are in a race.

Lycra louts make the prospect of a podgy middle-aged bloke doing 20mph on his S-pedelec seem rather tame.

 

[Twangman]

In London we only hear about the deaths of cyclists but there are innumerable smaller accidents that are so common they hardly get a mention. Cyclists in general are now just too fast,I am not talking about e-bikes,i am talking about any bike that cruises at 20 mph plus.
One of the most common accidents is the car door flung open in front of a cyclist,at 15 mph you may have a chance of stopping,at 25 mph it hurts.not maybe the cyclists fault but it is the cyclist who gets hurt.
Cyclists routinely weave round pedestrians on zebra crossings,they don't want to lose that built up momentum,fixed wheels are pretty much committed to maintaining the speed.
Boris's so called super highways are effectively race tracks for light sports bikes to travel as fast as possible...woe betide any pedestrian if he delays on that blue hallowed strip.
Why do we all want to travel so fast,I thought cycling was meant to be a leisurely support not turning us all into professional Wiggo style cyclists,why this need for speed.
The extra help to get up steep hills,good tyres and good brakes,good handling of the bike but many seem obsessed by speed and power,the 'my bike is faster than your bike' syndrome.
KudosDave

So in that case should we ban cars that go over 75mph and bring the speed down to 20mph on all roads except motorways? There are always idiots whever in a car motorbike or on a cycle who have no thought for anyone else's saftey or even there own. You can legistrate as much as you like but people will be people.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

So in that case should we ban cars that go over 75mph and bring the speed down to 20mph on all roads except motorways? There are always idiots whever in a car motorbike or on a cycle who have no thought for anyone else's saftey or even there own. You can legistrate as much as you like but people will be people.

Just to re-iterate its not about the speed per se. Its the fact you're not riding a bicycle, your riding what is essentially a moped and therefore its not the speed that's the problem its the fact that its not possible to register this class of moped in the UK (at the moment) therefore you're not simply speeding, your riding an illegal vehicle on the road without tax, insurance, etc etc.

Also I'm waiting to hear back from Bosch about the specific case in Germany, but I've had an email from a UK KTM dealer this morning asking us for some information to help a customer of theirs who has taken their eBike to Spain with them for the winter....

and I quote:

"They need a C of C for the bike because the Spanish police are fineing tourists with ebikes if they haven't got 3rd party insurance. They need this document to obtain one. Fine is 60 Euros, insurance is 30 Euros for the year. They also told me that someone riding an ebike with a throttle has been fined 2000 Euro's!!"

So whilst a lot of you are looking to Germany for the lead in this, be aware the European Law can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Us and the rest of the trade has it fingers crossed that an individual, or trader will not be involved in a high profile accident or case which causes eBikes to make it into main stream media attention for negative reasons and the Government panic and do allow any more ways of using / registering bikes over the current 200w limit we're supposed to be working with.

Col

 

[shemozzle999]

Also I'm waiting to hear back from Bosch about the specific case in Germany, but I've had an email from a UK KTM dealer this morning asking us for some information to help a customer of theirs who has taken their eBike to Spain with them for the winter....

and I quote:

"They need a C of C for the bike because the Spanish police are fineing tourists with ebikes if they haven't got 3rd party insurance. They need this document to obtain one. Fine is 60 Euros, insurance is 30 Euros for the year. They also told me that someone riding an ebike with a throttle has been fined 2000 Euro's!!"

Col

This Spanish case has been mentioned before, I think this is the source of the article everyone is quoting - see page 11:

http://www.informernews.org/swf/issue287.swf

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

ah ok. thanks for that link. I'd not seen that.

Its on page 11. for people looking at the local newspaper.

It appears the police are still working on this, because the case we're trying to support with, is happening this week.

 

[Wicky]

This Spanish case has been mentioned before, I think this is the source of the article everyone is quoting - see page 11:

http://www.informernews.org/swf/issue287.swf

The article (in a rather dubious looking paper) seems to be referring & warning about e-bikes (e-scooters) rather than pedelecs par se.

A quick google says that a few European countries inc. Spain and France, e-scooters need Road Registration.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The article (in a rather dubious looking paper) seems to be referring & warning about e-bikes (e-scooters) rather than pedelecs par se.

A quick google says that a few European countries inc. Spain and France, e-scooters need Road Registration.

yes, and if you dongle up an eBike (pedelec) or ride an s-Pedelec it is by definition an eScotter. An eBike or pedelec has to have 250w max and 25kph cut off - and this is true in Germany / Spain.

Bosch had to make there sPedelec class motor have a throttle (the walk assist is very fast in this case) that to go up to the min speed required for the bikes to be considered an scooter and therefore be legal to ride / register as such under the german law. Without the throttle is wouldn't be allowed.

It just happens the police in Spain are checking things. We've had to email a certificate of conformity to the customer with the KTM pedelec in Spain so they can get third party insurance needed to ride the bike legally, and also prove to the powers that be that his bike is a pedelec (eBike) and not an s-pedelec (eScotter).

 

[Wicky]

Thanks for that clarification on how things work abroad - Sounds quite onerous and bureaucratic that even legal pedelecs need such documentation.

If that kind of level enforcement came into UK could dealers handle the extra admin (and ensuing costs) if every owner needed them to supply associated paperwork (not just on new bikes but on second/third hand bikes). Would dealers still supply said certificates on legal bikes capable of potentially being fitted with speed enhancing plug&play dongles or simply reprogramable by customers to perform in excess of 25kmh?

Presumably self-builds are out the question on the continent?

 

[Cyclezee]

Just to follow up the Spanish police 'crackdown', we were recently contacted by a customer who has taken a couple of eZee bikes to Spain.

Some friends of the couple had been stopped by the police and asked to produce certificates of conformity for another brand of electric bike and our customers asked if we could send copies for their eZee bikes, so we simply sent them buy email.

If any other eZee owners out there are concerned we can do the same for them too.