Kalkhoff's shameful documentation

Spinalot

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2011
184
0
Sheffield, United Kingdom
/engage rant mode

This is a bugbear of mine that also covers multitudes of different product and companies and I wonder if any of you agree with me.

This purchase of my Kalkhoff Agattu C8 Impulse HS was a great joy, until...
I come to remove my wheel
Adjust my brakes
Adjust the mudguard clearance
Learn how best to charge my battery

I get a CD with manuals for all of their bikes with instructions for care that are outdated. Due to design changes.
The CD does not cover all subjects like instructions for adjusting brakes that are fitted to my model.
The descriptions are good in places but woefully poor in others, an example:
To remove the wheel, you have to remove the gear changing cable first. They word it thus
"pull the outer casing out from the outer casing holder of the cassette joint, and then remove the inner cable from the slit in the inner bracket"
Ok, doing this is impossible on my model, the cable is running through the frame and only pops out with 3 inches of outer cable showing I can barely grip the cable let alone slide it out of the joint. It then goes on to describe a way to release pressure if you find this difficult and let me tell you that if you have three arms this maybe, just maybe, possible!

The section on adjusting the brakes only covers basic operation and not even the type of brakes my bike has. I am left to go to the Internet to try and find answers.

The charger pictures show a model that does not look the same as the one I am supplied with. It goes on to describe the lights on the charger and as mine only has one green light I am left to only guess. The battery lights and what they mean also do not match entirely with what happens when I place the battery in the cradle. So I can only guess that I am doing everything correctly?
When I place my battery in its cradle no lights appear at all. I wait for one min, nothing. I lift it out and put it back I press the button on the battery and the five lights light up in sequence and then go out and the first light then starts to flash. The same thing has happened each of the three times I have come to charge it. Not as is described in the manual. Very frustrating.

These are only three examples that I have so far come across. I have little faith that I will not find any more.

I know that companies do this catch-all type of thing for their products for economic reasons but when it leaves consumers frustrated and annoyed with your company because of such simple support issues how economic is that in the long term? What about common decency of wanting to do the best for your customers and do a good job for the sake of "doing a good job".
With modern processes how hard is it, truly, to make a manual for each model and ship it with the bike or have it available online? I do not think it is that hard, even if some of the basic information is repeated across models.
We can all, probably, remember examples of "google translator" instruction manuals that used to come from the far east, but this is a European company that trades, for the most part, on its good reputation for customer service. If it cannot get its manuals in good order I worry for the service I am now obliged to look forward to.

What do you think?

/rant off
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
... and breathe. Yeah documentation is very extensive and broad ranging, not always tailored to every variant fitted. You want to try assembling a CST kit with nigh on none lol. Thank heavens for Pedelecs threads and guidance of others as no dealer to phone up with problems on that ... but we got d8veh which is way better than having a dealer involved ;)

Watch the video I linked which explains pretty clearly... along with the others that appear on Youtube in the 50 cycles series - check the whole series. They're much easier to follow than the 1-inch manual even if more close-ups would have been a help. Getting set up can be load of work on any bike.

On the gears, the yellow lines alignment in your 4th gear thing is one aspect (if you read forums on Alfine hubs, which are Shimano components whichever bike fitted to, it's often the case that they don't actually need aligning perfectly for good gear operation).

But releasing the little metal retaining nut at the end of the gear cable when removing wheel is a different issue. For that you need bike in lowest gear to give good access then move the sprung lever till cable is slack and use a flat end screwdriver if you need to with other hand to nudge the nut out of its slot if you can't do it easily with your fingers. Be careful not to reinsert the nut back to front - or it'll be nigh on impossible to reseat and can get stuck. I did that by mistake once took ages to get it back out. If that nut isn't a shaped tight fit you risk it coming loose - which would be bad. So just needs a bit of practice like the wheel. It's not impossible at all, trust me.

I think all installation and maintenance documentation on bike stuff can be confusing. Especially with translations. Primary market is Germanic. But I reckon many Kalkhoff owners get their bikes serviced rather than servicing themselves. I've yet to see a bike with no quirks, compromises or "odd bits" to work around. The build quality is really good and components top-end (Magura brakes like that come on very expensive bikes for example). But they are often not quite what you're used to in a simpler more basic design.

I can remove the rear wheel now in under a minute and put it back in about 5 minutes max. So yeah, you try to follow the documentation to the letter and feel aggrieved when you then can't understand why it doesn't seem to work. I shouted and screamed and got despondent at first, feeling I didn't want all the complications and the like. Then I worked it all out, and made sense. End of rants cue happy cycling. If you keep the head and just ring Matt he'll guide you through whatever you need. Have the phone by the bike at the time. Then when you've succeeded and all is well again take the bike out, fine-tune it and enjoy yourself. :)
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
Sorry if it's off the subject here but spinalot, why did you choose a hub gear?
I suspect that some manufacturers choose components to suit a price bracket instead of trying to make a 'ride and forget' bike. So, for £1800, let's spend £200 on forks, £200 on gears etc.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Sorry if it's off the subject here but spinalot, why did you choose a hub gear?
Be interested to hear too. Personally I love my hub gears ... far prefer them to a derailleur for everyday riding and especially riding in traffic on a crank drive bike. They're just different in terms of maintenance and work. I'd have had them on the other bike too if it weren't for the fact that the motor had to go in the same spot ... but the downsides of derailleur are overcome to some extent with throttle / cruise. Plenty of time to faff about getting in the right gear if you stop in the wrong one whilst you're underway.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
Many of these Kalkhoff owners manual anomalies arise from their using so many different power units, and it certainly accounts for charger instruction variations. They've used crank drives from Panasonic and Bosch, plus their own Impulse unit, BionX Direct Drive units, plus Panasonic and other front hub motors.
 

Tim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2006
770
78
London
Many of these Kalkhoff owners manual anomalies arise from their using so many different power units, and it certainly accounts for charger instruction variations. They've used crank drives from Panasonic and Bosch, plus their own Impulse unit, BionX Direct Drive units, plus Panasonic and other front hub motors.
That's not a problem, the motor systems are all covered separately in the latest manual, which can be downloaded here

http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf

It covers a lot, but it doesn't cover everything. The latest edition at any given time is available here Checking version

Spinalot, that should help with some of the issues but others will be covered by supplementary manuals, like these from Magura

HS 11: MAGURA - The Passion People!
 

Spinalot

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2011
184
0
Sheffield, United Kingdom
I chose a hub gear system because I wanted a sealed unit with no faffing about and crunching gears from being in the wrong gear and stuck etc. I really wanted the NuVinci N360 hub but kalkhoff have gone with the harmony system and heart rate monitors etc too much nonsense IMO. What I have so far with the Shimano hub has not impressed me. Lots of noise is what I seem to have got. When I can afford it I may upgrade my hub to a standard N360 NuVinci.
@Tim those manuals you linked are the same as I have and the chargers do not match what I have. Nor does the lights descriptions on either the charger or the battery.
I have tried to follow the battery instructions to the letter as I want the best out of it. That has not been possible. I can only hope I have not done anything wrong.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
t... but the downsides of derailleur are overcome to some extent with throttle / cruise. Plenty of time to faff about getting in the right gear if you stop in the wrong one whilst you're underway.
Alex, you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps all Bosch bikes should have a throttle.
A while ago, I stopped at my LBS asking the guys there what they thought of the Shimano hub gears.
Half of them have never come across one, the other half confess that they did not have much experience with them. I suspect the same goes with the NuVinci.
It's a case that buyers should ask themselves, can I look after this bike? if the answer is no then who will if I bought it?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
That's not a problem, the motor systems are all covered separately in the latest manual, which can be downloaded here

http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf
So why does Spinalot report this from his recently supplied manual and the one you've linked to is the 2012 one? Clearly it is a problem for him.

The charger pictures show a model that does not look the same as the one I am supplied with. It goes on to describe the lights on the charger and as mine only has one green light I am left to only guess.
Sounds like the manual's charger details are for a different system.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
A while ago, I stopped at my LBS asking the guys there what they thought of the Shimano hub gears.
Half of them have never come across one, the other half confess that they did not have much experience with them. I suspect the same goes with the NuVinci.
It's a case that buyers should ask themselves, can I look after this bike? if the answer is no then who will if I bought it?
Same goes for any eBike. Many people have trouble persuading their LBS to even touch a hub motor wheel !

A throttle only makes sense to me on a hub motor bike. I wouldn't want one on a crank drive... just get hub gears and learn to use / maintain them.

My local LBS hardly know what a mountain bike is let alone an eBike "as we never see them these days". Coz everyone who's anyone of course has a carbon road bike and heaven forbid you should ride anything other than a bog standard hybrid commuter :rolleyes:.

I personally think a lot being made of very little - there's nothing wrong with hub gears and a competent LBS could look after them .. but just need to find one - or do oneself - or in my case can take the bike to Bristol on the hi-speed train to be serviced there where Kalkhoff-savvy service dept on hand.
 

Spinalot

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2011
184
0
Sheffield, United Kingdom
50Cycles have sorted my problems (fingers crossed) with the bike making noises etc. But I stand by my annoyance with the documentation. It feels botched together and not what I was expecting from the marketing I saw prior to making my choice of brand.
 

Tim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2006
770
78
London
So why does Spinalot report this from his recently supplied manual and the one you've linked to is the 2012 one? Clearly it is a problem for him.
Because the one on the CDROM printed at some point in the past is not as up to date as the 2013 one I linked to. I was responding to your assumption that Kalkhoff have not bothered to treat each propulsion system separately, when in fact they have done just that.

Here it is again http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf
 

GORDONAL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2009
333
6
sunny Powys(Wales),Spain
50Cycles have sorted my problems (fingers crossed) with the bike making noises etc. But I stand by my annoyance with the documentation. It feels botched together and not what I was expecting from the marketing I saw prior to making my choice of brand.
Please elaborate on what they have done with the original problem , just out of interest

Alan
 

Spinalot

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2011
184
0
Sheffield, United Kingdom
Because the one on the CDROM printed at some point in the past is not as up to date as the 2013 one I linked to. I was responding to your assumption that Kalkhoff have not bothered to treat each propulsion system separately, when in fact they have done just that.

Here it is again http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf
Tim, this documentation you linked does not equal what I have here. Specifically the battery charger and the way my lights light up on the battery or my charger. Neither does the one supplied on the CD-rom.
I am sorry to say it, but despite your decent customer service the documentation from Kalkhoff is poor, generic and all mashed up together which is something I personally despise, because it is simply a cost cutting exercise by major manufacturers. Nothing to do with making a manual the simple and easy to understand thing that it should be.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,376
Because the one on the CDROM printed at some point in the past is not as up to date as the 2013 one I linked to. I was responding to your assumption that Kalkhoff have not bothered to treat each propulsion system separately, when in fact they have done just that.

Here it is again http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf
No Tim, look at the date in the URL, it's 2012, not 2013 as you've said. And Spinalot now confirms that his bike does not conform to that manual.
 

Rab C Nesbitt

Pedelecer
Aug 15, 2008
96
0
No Tim, look at the date in the URL, it's 2012, not 2013 as you've said. And Spinalot now confirms that his bike does not conform to that manual.
No further questions , your honour :)
 

Tim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2006
770
78
London
http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf

03 05 means it was released on 5th March, which I think you'll have to concede was in 2013.

If there's a better electric bike manual available than that one, I'd be very surprised. 99% of Kalkhoff owners have found it very useful and informative, certainly not 'shameful' or 'botched together' but it's further proof that you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

It very clearly states: "After all five LEDs have gone out, the battery is fully charged. " in all versions of the manual covering the Impulse bikes.
 
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