Leaving the EU

[tillson]

well, they're a mixed bag: certainly they're not all as utterly preoccupied with what they have, can get, may loose as you seem to be. Where I work in the NHS they are in fact mostly immigrants (you'll be in very, very deep doggy do when you need specialist care if all the immigrants have left). For now I find where I live in the UK just about a sufficiently liberal, shared community to feel it's OK to stay. I think there is a degree of projection here: you're the one who seems unhappy and preoccupied with leaving. For me reality isn't punctuated by binary decisions about happiness/unhappiness leaving/staying.

As the old saying goes, money does not buy you happiness. However, money does give you options, more choices, so I have positioned myself so that which ever way the vote goes, hopefully, I will not be adversely affected.

This is how options work, so I am not unduly worried or unhappy, but would like to see the UK stay out of the EU. As compensation, I stand to gain if we do remain within the EU.

 

[derf]

As the old saying goes, money does not buy you happiness. However, money does give you options, more choices, so I have positioned myself so that which ever way the vote goes, hopefully, I will not be adversely affected.

This is how options work, so I am not unduly worried or unhappy, but would like to see the UK stay out of the EU. As compensation, I stand to gain if we do remain within the EU.

It doesn't help for this debate to get polarised, but - respectfully - I disagree with you: quality of life is not mainly about money - it's mainly about relationships, community. Life is not and act of consumption - its a shared experience. There is part of it that is about money (we all have to survive), but as Europeans we all have much more than we could possibly need. And all the financial/material freedom/options we could possibly need. I'm not rich, but I can most definitely afford everything I could possibly need.

 

[tillson]

It doesn't help for this debate to get polarised, but - respectfully - I disagree with you: quality of life is not mainly about money - it's mainly about relationships, community. Life is not and act of consumption - its a shared experience. There is part of it that is about money (we all have to survive), but as Europeans we all have much more than we could possibly need. And all the financial/material freedom/options we could possibly need. I'm not rich, but I can most definitely afford everything I could possibly need.

I have never said that quality of life is all about money and you will not be able to point to any of my posts containing that statement. This is because you are lying.

Please tell the truth at all times and do not dishonestly misquote what I have said. The use of dishonesty and deceit will not further your cause. Stop it. Now.

 

[trex]

if I was asked to name the reasons for my voting to leave, I will name just one: over development. There is no other way to slow this down.

 

[derf]

if I was asked to name the reasons for my voting to leave, I will name just one: over development. There is no other way to slow this down.

but is Europe more developed/developing than the UK? over subsidised agricultural France isn't, underlawful Italy doesn't seem it. my (highly biased) fantasy is that a brexit uk will fly off on a t-tipped relationship with USA and become a corporate sh%t hole obsessed with economic growth - next to a much more socialist Europe with workers rights and 30 hour work weeks (and many simple unproductive industries such as cheese and wind making)?

 

[mike killay]

Derf,
I thought I had made my mind up, but now you've got me thinking.
I hate the idea of big business and its ruthless trampling over the little people.
Just for profit.
Not ours though.
Frack away, spoil the little countryside we have left.

Which takes me back to my criticism of 'Progress' on the GTECH thread.
That old SLA bike that someone obviously loves and cares for, just needs new batteries, not throwing away.

 

[gray198]

but is Europe more developed/developing than the UK? over subsidised agricultural France isn't, underlawful Italy doesn't seem it. my (highly biased) fantasy is that a brexit uk will fly off on a t-tipped relationship with USA and become a corporate sh%t hole obsessed with economic growth - next to a much more socialist Europe with workers rights and 30 hour work weeks (and many simple unproductive industries such as cheese and wind making)?

Derf
Noble wishes and I'm sure we would like some of that. How are you proposing to pay for it. Didn't they try something similar in Greece??? And look at the mess they ended up in. France is in a right mess at the moment with strikes , because the government are trying to impose some different policies into the labour market. Unfortunately economic growth is a necessary evil,. or do you want to go back to the pre industrial era

 

[Kudoscycles]

My heart says leave but my head says remain....you have to understand how much product we buy priced in US dollars. With the uncertainty of the referendum the £ is not strong against the US dollar but it seems to stabilise at about 1.40...if the markets thought that a Brexit would be a realistic possibility and that the £ would strengthen on that result,then the £ should be rising now.
My opinion is that the £ would dive against the US dollar if we voted leave,that would put up the prices of so much in the UK,it would hurt.
I know that is balanced by the weakness against the Euro making our exports attractive,but we are a trading nation,we buy things and sell them on,our cost prices would increase considerably.
E-bikes from China and bike parts from China are normally priced in US dollars,they would increase in price if the £ weakened.
I like Boris,I find him a likeable character,but he is working to a completely different agenda than our sovereinty,I think he has mounted the wrong horse this time.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

apparently some of us can already start the ball rolling

 

[tillson]

apparently some of us can already start the ball rolling

You know what to do!

 

[flecc]

You know what to do!

Yes, use the reverse. I wouldn't want to get printing ink on my backside.
.

 

[tillson]

77,000 JOBLESS EU migrants came to the UK last year.

330,000 migrants, a record high, arrived in the UK last year.

It seems to be in all the papers this morning, but not a word on the Bias Broadcasting Corporation. These are official figures, so the actual figures will be at least double this number.

Don't get ill and need to see a doctor or a specialist. The queue has just become even longer. That house your children wanted, not a chance, it's private landlords all the way for them.

We simply have to get out of this madness.

 

[trex]

it's already on the BBC website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36394403

The Daily Mail describes the figures - which record the difference between the number of people coming to the UK for at least a year and those leaving - as a "hammer blow" to David Cameron, less than a month before the referendum. It highlights what it says is a record 77,000 jobless EU migrants who arrived in the UK without the offer of employment.

I don't buy the interpretation of the Daily Mail though. You should look into the distribution of people claiming JSA.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

 

[derf]

Derf
Noble wishes and I'm sure we would like some of that. How are you proposing to pay for it. Didn't they try something similar in Greece??? And look at the mess they ended up in. France is in a right mess at the moment with strikes , because the government are trying to impose some different policies into the labour market. Unfortunately economic growth is a necessary evil,. or do you want to go back to the pre industrial era

the european stagnation is one side of the coin (and i agree with you about it) - but the economic growth miracle that is britain is unfortunately in reality a place where workers pensions are degraded, the disabled loose benefits and public services are run into the ground so that philip greens and ian cameron can make and hide billions offshore, in this way also a big part of the cause of the 2008 financial crisis. I'm afraid I'm not convinced that britain's future outside an eu is one of growing out of recession.

 

[tillson]

it's already on the BBC website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36394403



I don't buy the interpretation of the Daily Mail though. You should look into the distribution of people claiming JSA.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

Sorry Trex but those figures regarding 4 times as many Brits claiming benefits in Germany as Germans claiming benefits in the UK are typically misleading figures used to hoodwink and deceive. Figures used to divert attention from the catastrophe of immigration into the UK.

You will note that actual numbers are never given with this type of statistic. For example, you could have 4 uk citizens claiming benefits in Germany and one German claiming benefits in the uk for that claim to be true.

In contrast, the ACTUAL number of migrants into the UK is 330,000 of which 77,000 are spongeing of the benefits system and stealing our resources and housing.

 

[trex]

We have currently about 1.86 million people looking for work at the moment. So 77,000 out of 1.86 million is 4.1%, not unreasonable in view of the dynamics of migration. You should be more worried about the disparity between unemployed EU migrants versus unemployed non-EU migrants who are at the bottom of the plots at the moment. Brexit may reduce the number of migrants from 330,000 to perhaps 250,000 for the next two parliaments - unlikely to be more than that. Brexit won't save the NHS which is a tax based system, its funding depends directly on goverment tax income. Fewer people paying in is not going to help it. Brexit won't solve the housing shortage because less money will flow into house building. Brexit won't actually solve any of our current major problems, it just slows down the rate of development (that's what I want).

 

[tillson]

We have currently about 1.86 million people looking for work at the moment. So 77,000 out of 1.86 million is 4.1%, not unreasonable in view of the dynamics of migration. You should be more worried about the disparity between unemployed EU migrants versus unemployed non-EU migrants who are at the bottom of the plots at the moment. Brexit may reduce the number of migrants from 330,000 to perhaps 250,000 for the next two parliaments - unlikely to be more than that.

It's still 77,000 too many and that was just arrivals last year.

Agreed regarding non EU migrants, but I think quitting the EU will start momentum getting all immigration into the UK under some sort of control.

I think there is a growing, but government / media suppressed, discontent over immigration. It's a lethal cocktail which history shows, when you try to artificially fuse vastly varying cultured together explodes into violence. Why these EU cretins think they can pull it off is bewildering.

 

[trex]

I think Brexit gives us a choice, we can always apply to get back in later after the EU and the UN manage to sort out a new framework for migration. One thing for sure, the number of non-EU migrants (about 180,000 a year) will increase after Brexit and their contribution to our economy is not as high as from EU migrants. I think Brexiters need to think about this carefully before throwing away the better half.

 

[derf]

We have currently about 1.86 million people looking for work at the moment. So 77,000 out of 1.86 million is 4.1%, not unreasonable in view of the dynamics of migration. You should be more worried about the disparity between unemployed EU migrants versus unemployed non-EU migrants who are at the bottom of the plots at the moment. Brexit may reduce the number of migrants from 330,000 to perhaps 250,000 for the next two parliaments - unlikely to be more than that. Brexit won't save the NHS which is a tax based system, its funding depends directly on goverment tax income. Fewer people paying in is not going to help it. Brexit won't solve the housing shortage because less money will flow into house building. Brexit won't actually solve any of our current major problems, it just slows down the rate of development (that's what I want).

i see what you mean with the slowing of rate of development, i heard a similar argument at work yesterday - that brexit will be good for britain because it will make house prices collapse, which will make it possible for first time buyers to afford property. It wasnt meant tongue in cheek or ironically, and i think it makes sense (sincerely). But there must be better ways to make the economy deflate than to sell out ono workers rights and embrace a corporate anglo american way of life.

 

[trex]

I think highly successful professionals like yourself won't be affected, whatever the result. The current migrant crisis will take years to solve. EU citizens need first to come to term with sharing living space and resources, not just with other EU citizens, but with the whole world. That may take one or two generations. This country has proportionally more resourceful people than most, I am sure we'll grow up a bit sooner than expected.