Legal ebike?

[flecc]

I wonder if the UK electric bicycle market will ever match the Dutch market.

They have influenced the EU law making by being active during the open consultation period to secure a law acceptable to their population and can now enjoy the experience of using their bicycles without any worries- how nice must that be.

Likewise for the other countries who support the active use of ‘S’ class vehicles.

I think the crucial difference was more to do with the sheer scale of cycling in those countries rather than just the presence of representations.

With some 70% of the Netherlands population riding bicycles regularly, no government there dares to upset cyclists.

We of course have a dual problem, our very much smaller numerical influence, further weakened as you say by the fragmentation of views on e-bikes. Those who should be our friends are our enemies out of competitive fears.

It's hardly surprising that we are treated as a very minor issue, since that is sadly what we are. Our governments and the civil service have far larger and often urgent issues to deal with.

As d8veh says, the present situation does have some very real advantages.
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[hoppy]

Don't worry Tom, this situation will remain unchanged. Transport policy is the domain of the EU as repeatedly laid down in that institution's agreed measures. The market for bureaucracy free pedelecs is so huge in northern mainland Europe that it now cannot be changed without causing a revolution, so our much smaller market benefits from the mandatory rules.

The EU exemption for pedelecs from the sort of bureaucratic blight that affects motor vehicles is written onto UK law in 2002/EC/24, and the only possible UK alteration to that had to be by application to the European Commission between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003. It's too late now.
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Does the fact that EU directive was "written onto UK law" have a significance?

 

[flecc]

Does the fact that EU directive was "written onto UK law" have a significance?

Only in one way. 2002/EC/24 lays down the rules for type approval of two and three wheel motor vehicles. Article 1.1(h) is one of the seven listed exemptions from motor vehicle type approval and it specifically excludes pedelecs conforming to EU law on those machines, regarding them as bicycles and not motor vehicles.

Since the UK government did not make an application to the European Commission within the allowed period between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003 to vary that order, that law is cast in stone here unless the EU changes it. The latter is highly unlikely in view of the dominance of e-biking in the key EU cycling countries.

Even if we elect to be no part of the EU there won't necessarily be any change, since we have the example of Norway to draw on. The Norwegians voted to stay out of the EU, but as part of the European trading group, as we are, that meant they had numerous EU laws. Therefore, although permanently outside of the union, they retained all the previously adopted EU laws, including that on pedelecs.

We would be virtually certain to do the same to protect our trading interests.
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[hoppy]

Only in one way. 2002/EC/24 lays down the rules for type approval of two and three wheel motor vehicles. Article 1.1(h) is one of the seven listed exemptions from motor vehicle type approval and it specifically excludes pedelecs conforming to EU law on those machines, regarding them as bicycles and not motor vehicles.

Since the UK government did not make an application to the European Commission within the allowed period between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003 to vary that order, that law is cast in stone here unless the EU changes it. The latter is highly unlikely in view of the dominance of e-biking in the key EU cycling countries.

Even if we elect to be no part of the EU there won't necessarily be any change, since we have the example of Norway to draw on. The Norwegians voted to stay out of the EU, but as part of the European trading group, as we are, that meant they had numerous EU laws. Therefore, although permanently outside of the union, they retained all the previously adopted EU laws, including that on pedelecs.

We would be virtually certain to do the same to protect our trading interests.
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Surely,then, if we have it in UK law that EU conforming pedelecs are bicycles then EN 15194 bikes are legal?

 

[flecc]

Surely,then, if we have it in UK law that EU conforming pedelecs are bicycles then EN 15194 bikes are legal?

No Hoppy, we can't extrapolate like that.

2002/EC/24 lays down what are two and three wheel motor vehicles. It merely excludes pedelecs from that motor vehicle law, it doesn't define them in UK law. In UK law an EAPC as we legally call them is defined by the 1980s laws I've already quoted.

No mention is made of EN15194 in that EU order or any other UK law, so once again, it has no force here.

EU pedelecs cannot be legal here when they are 250 watt and the UK law specifies 200 watts. We have an informal waiver for their use, but that is not a legal definition. The only way EN15194 will have force here is if we adopt the EU pedelecs law and specifically include worded in that the acceptance of EN15194 as the technical standard.
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[shemozzle999]

That is the point, traders have secured the blind eye letter to allow them to continue selling 250W bicycles but the fact remains that users of these bicycles still carry all the risk if the blind eye letter is ever challenged in court.

The DWP have taken a similar approach with their policies but when challenged a high court ruling have found them to be in breach of the law.

 

[shemozzle999]

Does it matter?/quote]

Yes, I am afraid it does.

Every 250W electric bicycle used on the road, path or track is in fact a motor vehicle.

Until the DfT adopts what ever form of the EU regulation it deems fit for the UK we as riders are in breach of the law.

There are no advantages in keeping this situation going from the riders point of view.

There are sufficiently well designed 250W motor units and I for one would like the opportunity to ride one free of any worry about the law.

We need to help them by supporting them into introducing the regulations into law at the earliest opportunity.

Then sellers would be able to offer personal guarantees that their products can be lawfully operated within the UK.

 

[trex]

how can someone advertise a road legal bike and at the same time affirm that the bike has a 1000W motor??? Who the hell issued the certificate to a bike with a 1000W motor I wonder.

 

[hoppy]

No Hoppy, we can't extrapolate like that.

2002/EC/24 lays down what are two and three wheel motor vehicles. It merely excludes pedelecs from that motor vehicle law, it doesn't define them in UK law. In UK law an EAPC as we legally call them is defined by the 1980s laws I've already quoted.

No mention is made of EN15194 in that EU order or any other UK law, so once again, it has no force here.

EU pedelecs cannot be legal here when they are 250 watt and the UK law specifies 200 watts. We have an informal waiver for their use, but that is not a legal definition. The only way EN15194 will have force here is if we adopt the EU pedelecs law and specifically include worded in that the acceptance of EN15194 as the technical standard.
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I beg to differ! If, as you say, we have a UK law that defines an EU conforming pedelec as a bicycle then that is what I am riding! Other laws may describe something else as much as they like!

 

[flecc]

I beg to differ! If, as you say, we have a UK law that defines an EU conforming pedelec as a bicycle then that is what I am riding! Other laws may describe something else as much as they like!

You can differ as much as you like Hoppy, any lawyer will know how wrong you are in law.

Once again you've distorted the position by stating that law defines pedelecs as bicycles when I've specifically said it does not do that. Here's the relevant sentence from my earlier post:

"2002/EC/24 lays down what are two and three wheel motor vehicles. It merely excludes pedelecs from that motor vehicle law, it doesn't define them in UK law."

The exclusion means that the excluded vehicle is left as being a bicycle by default with respect to type approval law only, since 2002/EC/24 only has legal force as a motor vehicle law.

For the last time, what defines an Electric Assist Pedal Cycle (EAPC) in UK law is the EAPC regulation of 1983, which in turn refers to the requisite British Standard 1727 for measurement of motors and batteries.

That is the only law that a UK court will consider at present in respect of defining what is an electric assist bike.
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[hoppy]

"The EU exemption for pedelecs from the sort of bureaucratic blight that affects motor vehicles is written onto UK law in 2002/EC/24, and the only possible UK alteration to that had to be by application to the European Commission between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003. It's too late now."
.[/quote]
Why do you say that, flecc, if only UK legal EAPC's are recognised in UK law? I genuinely don't understand. I'm not trying to be awkward!

 

[flecc]

Hi Hoppy. Tom was concerned about the introduction of motor vehicle like bureaucratic measures on legal pedelecs. Since we have accepted the EU motor vehicle type approval legislation which doesn't permit a later introduction of something which matches the EU pedelec specification, that can't easily happen.

Though in theory a fudge might be possible to add bureaucratic measures while avoiding type approval, the other aspect preventing that is that our EAPC law is with the DfT for amendment to harmonisation to EU law eventually. Meanwhile the old comprehensive government advice pages on EAPCs have been archived pending the change.

So we are in a state of stasis in which our legal ebikes cannot be classified as a form of motor vehicle with that bureaucracy since they appear to fall within the EU pedelec specification stated, yet cannot be separately legislated against in a way that will conflict with EU pedelec law since that opposes current policy objectives. Thus Tom can be reassured.

But of course meanwhile our only specifying law is the old EAPC one until it is amended, goodness knows when.
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