Legal Pitfalls

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,863
30,414
The ebike law is extremely poorly written - - - - - because its mid-drive focused where the controller is integrated into the main body of the motor assembly it makes zero sense when applied to hub motors where the controller is separate. - - - - - -we have to put up with the moronic EU ebike legislation which makes little sense.
I to an extent agree , the regs for power control are all wrong. There is no regulation on the controller max
Not completely true.

First, there is no such thing as an ebike in EU or UK legislation. There is one class of assisted cycle, called EPAC (Electric Power Assisted Cycle) in the EU and EAPC (Electric Assisted Pedal Cycle) in the UK.

There are also three classes of moped in the EU, the latter two lumped as one in the UK. Some are bicycle based and commonly called ebikes, even though there is no such thing in law:

L1e-A: max. assist speed 25 kph, max. power rating 1kW.

L1e-B: max assist speed 45kph, max. power rating 4kW.

S-class: max assist speed 45kph, max. power rating 500W.

I have excluded 250LPM since that doesn't exist in law, it exists only as a ministerial permission to breach the law.

Keeping this to EAPCs, the EU regulation which we also follow specifies the power by tests of actual power specified in EN15194. But EN15194, like our EAPC regulation only applies to complete machines. There is no such thing as a kit motor in law, so the effect of using different controllers with kit hub motors is irrelevant when it isn't legislated for.

One method of power test in EN15194, that of power at the motor shaft, specifies that is has to be measured in accordance with EN60034-1, the Rotating Electrical Machinery Directive. Since to meet the specified limit the current supplied is limited by that need, it's not true to say any controller can be used.

Equally the second method of power test in EN15194 limits the current supplied to meet the specified conditions.

So how come there are complete pedelecs clearly capable of delivering such high levels of actual usable power at the wheel? Quite simply it's because the law is being bent to fit the need, usually by understating the permitted temperature maximum for continuous maximum power.

Therefore it's not the law that is wrong, it's that it is being breached, or most often ignored, since 26 of the 28 EU countries never accepted EN15194, only France and Britain signed up to it as EU members at the time.

So how did this come about? Well it all starts with the Japanese law which at the time was the most sophisticated so loosely copied by the EU. However the Japanese commonly cycle in a very sedate way, their accepted common cycling speed being 15kph (9.4 mph) and even slower for their legal pavement cycling, so their pedelec law reflected that with very tight power conditions and early power phase down from that low speed.

So although the EU copied the Japanese power limit of 250W, they avoided constraining it so tightly to better match common European cycling. It's that tolerance which is being taken advantage of by wrongly interpreting it as a loophole.

Britain was much stricter with our original law, only permitting a true 200 watts with a 12 mph assist speed limit, these only increasing in three stages long after, thanks to the EU.

Here's the EN15194 power test details for those interested. Since the other test is power at the motor shaft which is clearly not possible on most pedelecs, I've only given the power at the wheel details in two charts:

Power at Wheel 1, Test Conditions.jpg

Power at Wheel 2, test procedure.jpg
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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d) Verify the speed value is equal or less than the maximum speed declared by the manufacturer after 20 metres (D)
P = m x 2D^2/T^3
Your bike should take at least 6.9 seconds to reach the 20 metres line.

You can try it without the throttle and pedal as little as possible to let the motor do most of the work.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Your bike should take at least 6.9 seconds to reach the 20 metres line.

You can try it without the throttle and pedal as little as possible to let the motor do most of the work.
Of course impossible to do with a torque sensing pedelec since the motor doing all the work is a test condition.
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TwoWheels1954

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 25, 2023
23
12
Regarding the motor. If it is marked '1500w', or similar, it is ilegal - end of. To be legal it has to be marked/stamped 250w.
It would be interesting to know how the seller intends to 'easily make it road legal.
Even if controller output current is restricted to 6.9A (250w @ 36v) the motor would still be ilegal as well as bloody useless as a direct drive at this current would probably produce more heat and noise than motion.
So, as you'd stated it was for road use, then bike is not fit for purpose.
Thanks for that, you make a very interesting and logical point. Wing haven't given any indication as to how it can be modified simply that it's "easily done". I have passed your comment, and several others from this forum to my solicitor who is now reviewing the information in order to decide on where next.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,863
30,414
Luckily China does have much better statistics. As already shown the average price of an ebike in China is $167. It goes without saying these are very simple ebikes using lead acid batteries.


However surely the price alone must indicate e-bikes anyway the average selling prices is far too low to allow for full e-mopeds surely.
Read the article linked to later and you'll be much better informed about the dearth of cycling in China. The Chinese don't like pedalling and as Wai Won Ching, boss of Ezee Kinetics posted, they don't understand our obsession with cycling up hills, always walking up theirs. In that linked article you'll see a photo of them riding bicycles and not a deralleur in sight and they don't use hub gears either. So when it comes to having a motor they go the whole way with Moped style machines that they don't pedal.

So I trust you'll accept that Mr Ching knows best since he is a manufacturer of our kind of e-bikes which he only sells in the west, never in China. But if not, perhaps youll accept what d8veh says since he had been one of the most knowledgeable of our members. He has been to China to look at the scene there and has reported with photos exactly what I say about their e-bikes being almost entirely mopeds. And they really are as cheap as you say.

The photos below are what they call ebikes:


China e-bikes a.jpg

China e-bikes c.jpg

China e-bikes b.jpg

And below you'll see Honda's latest range of ebikes for the Chinese market. Note the very low geared near to useless pedals and the footrests and platforms to rest their legs on and the huge scooter style rear wheel motors:

China e-bikes d.jpg

Finally here's the link I mentioned. Please read it right though to be better informed about Chinese cycling from 1990 to today:

Information Link
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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:p
 

TwoWheels1954

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 25, 2023
23
12
Well, here we are, the final instalment of my saga:

I heard from the lawyer today and, after reviewing all of my correspondence with Wing, I don't have a case. He sites two reasons fr his conclusion:

1) There is nothing in writing to say that I made it clear to Wing that I wanted the bike for use on the road so it's my word against his and the outcome is 50:50 depending on who the judge chooses to believe.
2) He has been unable to identify ant assets belonging to the owner of Wing so, there is a low level of confidence that collecting any award would be possible even if I win.

It seems to me that even if I'd bought the bike from Halfords, there would be nothing in writing and any conversation I had with a member of staff about the use I wanted to put the bike to would almost certainly be out on the shop floor without ant independent witness to what was said. I don't know about you guys but I don't tend to go into a shop with a written statement of what I want to buy or what I want to use the item for!

Since the same argument could be made for buying a washing machine from Curry's or, indeed, any retailer it seems to me that the Consumer Rights Act only works for the consumer if you're dealing with a benevolent dealer so it doesn't offer much in the way of Consumer Rights.

Anyway, that's the end of the matter because I can't afford the £275 per hour, with every six minutes as a charging period, to pursue the case and all I can do is alert people to this bike seller with rather questionable business ethics and suggest that they stay away from him.

As for me, I need to buy another bike so I'd be interested in any recommendations for a reliable seller of good quality road bikes at around the £1500 mark. I could spend more if something really takes my eye.

P.S. Anyone want to buy a 1500W 48V eMTB, one careful owner and just 8 miles on the clock from new. Immaculate condition etc. :)
 
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StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
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Sad, but I cannot say I am surprised.

Without specific legislation, the seller of the eBike seems to have no legal obligation to inform the purchaser of the legalities of the product being sold.

A responsible UK government would mandate that sellers, of eBikes not legal on the roads, are required to obtain from the purchaser, a signed declaration that they know the eBike is illegal on the road. If the eBike, not legal for road use, was going to be legally used on private land, how could there be an objection ?

Whilst this would not stop all the abuse, I suspect a lot of sellers of the illegal on the road bikes would think twice, and the purchasers cannot claim 'I did not realise' when caught.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,332
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id just ride it chances are you sell it then order a take away and the guy you just sold it to turns up on it with ur big mac meal :p

ebike shop one of the biggest in the uk that sells bosch bikes ect will sell and fit dongles to there bikes and i have had a dongle on my bike now for 9 years.

if you cant go faster than 15mph then the scooter gangs will have you for lunch as need a fkn crash helmet to walk to the shop:rolleyes:
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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The DVSA last year successfully prosecuted two companies for selling illegal ebikes/scooters.
 
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TwoWheels1954

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 25, 2023
23
12
Sad, but I cannot say I am surprised.

Without specific legislation, the seller of the eBike seems to have no legal obligation to inform the purchaser of the legalities of the product being sold.

A responsible UK government would mandate that sellers, of eBikes not legal on the roads, are required to obtain from the purchaser, a signed declaration that they know the eBike is illegal on the road. If the eBike, not legal for road use, was going to be legally used on private land, how could there be an objection ?

Whilst this would not stop all the abuse, I suspect a lot of sellers of the illegal on the road bikes would think twice, and the purchasers cannot claim 'I did not realise' when caught.
Thanks for that, your comments make so much sense. It's indeed sad that a supposedly key piece of consumer legislation has no teeth and relies on the goodwill of the retailer to get your rights.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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Somewhere on the forum I posted a link to the stories.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,332
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TwoWheels1954

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 25, 2023
23
12
id just ride it chances are you sell it then order a take away and the guy you just sold it to turns up on it with ur big mac meal :p

ebike shop one of the biggest in the uk that sells bosch bikes ect will sell and fit dongles to there bikes and i have had a dongle on my bike now for 9 years.

if you cant go faster than 15mph then the scooter gangs will have you for lunch as need a fkn crash helmet to walk to the shop:rolleyes:
Thanks for your comments, can you give me some more details about the eBike shop you refer to?
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,332
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you are wasting ur time ebike shop used to have the option on the same page to add a dongle and colin at ktm bikes at the time lost it and went to war.

all that effort ened in ebike shop just removed the option for a dongle off the same page as the bike and is now here.


note!!! they sell dongles for the new smart motors and will honor bosch warranty, no other ebike dealer can do this and he does not pay for the replacements either as bosch has no 100% way to tell if a dongle has been used or not :p

ebike shop is also by appointment only you just cant walk in there to have a look round bit like a ebike mafia ;)

and they win the best ebike dealer every year lmfao