Lifecycle City Sport

[Stumpi]

Andrew, who is one of the founding BEBA members has suggested that BEBA devise a set of tests and offer all bike manufacturers the opportunity to submit their bikes for testing. It would be possible hold a day at a hired track or circuit (Brands Hatch or similar). Manufacturers or representatives would be invited to be present to make sure there is no foul play, but all would be controlled by BEBA officials, who would not be allowed to test their own bikes. Figures from the test would be available on the BEBA web site.

Maybe our resident Guru would come along to ensure impartiality?

Any comments?

I think a standard set of tests across the board would be a good idea and have the following comments

Realistic test circuit conditions with a mixture of urban and country roads, a few hills and a bit of starting and stopping.

Test rider should be a typical ebike rider of moderate fitness not some 8 stone ex proffessional cyclist

Details of the test conditions should be available so so potential customers can compare them with their own requirements

 

[Tim]

I think a standard set of tests across the board would be a good idea and have the following comments

Realistic test circuit conditions with a mixture of urban and country roads, a few hills and a bit of starting and stopping.

Test rider should be a typical ebike rider of moderate fitness not some 8 stone ex proffessional cyclist

Details of the test conditions should be available so so potential customers can compare them with their own requirements

ExtraEnergy already do this very well, every year.

 

[Stumpi]

ExtraEnergy already do this very well, every year.

Great link many thanks

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks Scott, I appreciate your sentiments even though a little tongue in cheek me thinks!!

I meant what I said, I think you guys do a great job.

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

ExtraEnergy already do this very well, every year.

Hi Tim

Simply offering a cheaper and more focused alternative.

Hey, I could do without the extra work if there is no interest!

All the best

David

 

[carpetbagger]

I decided to factor in the easiness of the bike to be ridden with a flat battery and also battery price when i chose the Agattu. I get 35-40 miles with a mixture of flat and hills ...but to be honest there are too many variables...The best bike for you is what you can afford and its general ability to do what you want it to...We will have a long wait for a bike that will do unlimited miles and go up any hill without any effort at 15mph..but if it did would we be cyclists ?

 

[alex_h]

A little harsh Alex!

It so much depends which Wisper you priced, the 905eco could well be in the region of £400 as a non electric bike, where as you would need to pay more than that for just the 906xc carbon matrix frame!

I am not sure you know why the Ezee was chosen at the Gadget show? I was at the event and was told by one of the presenters (the bald one) that it was chosen over the Wisper because it was going to be ridden by the pregnant lady presenter (the pretty one) in the London trial a she could get her leg over the cross bar more easily! Even Andy from One Bike said he was surprised! IMO the Ezee Forza and Wisper 905se City (tested) are both excellent bikes. As a matter of interest the bald presenter said that the Cytronex was his personal favourite, no one was really very sure why the Ultra Motor was chosen over all the other superb electric bikes there (including Kalkhoff) suffice to say there were a lot of apologies given by the presenters at the event. And no one in the trade took the results very seriously, hence there was no real discussion after the event.

To show Eddie so much disrespect is offensive, Eddie uses his bikes all the time and simply because he is vocal on this site about the quality of both the Wisper bikes he owns surly is not a reason for you to have a go. Considering the 1000's of Wispers that are on the road in the UK and the very few complaints we see either on this site or anywhere else for that matter, could it be you are wrong?

Regarding the "cheap parts on our bikes, I have asked this question of another poster and did not get a reply, which parts are you referring to? It may have been true a few years ago before we we fully understood the market and our bikes sold at around the £800 mark, but this certainly is not the case now.

Finally, I can assure you that no one in this industry is pocketing massive profits, we sell a LOT of bikes in now 15 countries, when we take R and D into account we barely turn a profit.

All the best

David

Hi David,

I'm not here to be harsh, these are the facts and I'm not here is well to tell ya what sucks in your bikes

u you gotta work it out with ya RD. Having sad that i give ya a hint. Just buy one of the kalkhoffs off 50 cycles (THEY RUN A SALE NOW so you can save some money) or Ezee Forza and put next to it your 905, then you can smile or cry but I tell ya you will see the real difference in quality components.

BTW your 905eco as non electric would never cost £400 in the real world. You can go to Evans Cycles the most expensive and best bike shop in London and get a Specialized for £300 with hell higher specs. I give your 905 eco value of £229 RRP and its only due to good looking frame, sorry to have my honest opinion

 

[Wisper Bikes]

A Quick story (True)

Andy from On Bike related this to me last week, I thought as it is on topic you may like to share.

Andy was at a show at the NEC last week, whilst there an old gentleman from Wales came onto his stand and asked about range. Andy, being very honest said from, 30 to 50 miles depending on how you ride it.

To this the gentleman scoffed and said, "that's rubbish, I have had my electric bike for years now, I use it every day and I still get over 100 miles to the charge and I live in a very hilly area.

Andy of course was a little suspicious but being a nice guy humoured the old chap. "That's very interesting" said Andy "do you enjoy using your electric bike? What do you use it for?"

The gentleman replied, "every day I use my bike to go to the shops to get my papers, it's a long steep ride, about 7 miles".

Andy now intrigued "really how do you find the ride back up to your house?"

The gentleman looked at Andy as if he was a few cogs short of top gear and said, "my brother takes it back up in his Land Rover!"



All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi David,

I'm not here to be harsh, these are the facts and I'm not here is well to tell ya what sucks in your bikes

u you gotta work it out with ya RD. Having sad that i give ya a hint. Just buy one of the kalkhoffs off 50 cycles (THEY RUN A SALE NOW so you can save some money) or Ezee Forza and put next to it your 905, then you can smile or cry but I tell ya you will see the real difference in quality components.

BTW your 905eco as non electric would never cost £400 in the real world. You can go to Evans Cycles the most expensive and best bike shop in London and get a Specialized for £300 with hell higher specs. I give your 905 eco value of £229 RRP and its only due to good looking frame, sorry to have my honest opinion

No problems Alex!

I totally disagree with you and am not at all surprised you don't know what is wrong with the bikes or what you consider the "cheap" components to be. However you are absolutely entitled to you opinion, and I respect you right to air them here.

I seem to have made some enemies lately, maybe I should stop posting for a while!

All the best

David

 

[alex_h]

not enemies David, not at all, I thought we are all here to have a good and logical discussion here with facts. You are more than welcome to post - you would made me sad if you take a holiday in posting. i do value your presence here as it gives us the end users to talk to you directly which is not the case with many other companies. I hope the forum really motivates you to improve your bikes.

regards

Alex

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks Alex

Thanks Alex!

I would hate to make you sad!

Best regards

David

 

[Bob_about]

Hi Alex

I am with you 100% on this.

The truth is that using level one assist on one of our bikes over 70 miles is achievable and has been achieved with a 13 stone rider. The problem is that very few people ride an electric bike on assist level one and are not normally as fit as our rider (Anthony in New Zealand).

The problem all manufacturers have (including us), is that we need to sell our bikes to stay in business and therefore market them in the most favourable light possible.

We have been running trials recently in more realistic circumstances, i.e. stopping and starting the bike every 2km and using maximum power. we are getting 1 mile at the top end from 10Wh and from 15Wh at the lower end giving us a range of between 33 and 50 miles from a 500Wh battery.

Speaking yesterday to Andrew at On Bike he is getting similar results from the Ezee and E Motion saying a realistic figure is 15miles\Wh. I think anyone needing a more realistic estimate of the performance of a bike in the real world should simply work to this rule.

Andrew, who is one of the founding BEBA members has suggested that BEBA devise a set of tests and offer all bike manufacturers the opportunity to submit their bikes for testing. It would be possible hold a day at a hired track or circuit (Brands Hatch or similar). Manufacturers or representatives would be invited to be present to make sure there is no foul play, but all would be controlled by BEBA officials, who would not be allowed to test their own bikes. Figures from the test would be available on the BEBA web site.

Maybe our resident Guru would come along to ensure impartiality?

Any comments?

All the best

David

Hi David

Can I say I think this would be an excellent idea and really help current owners and potential new customers to understand likely ranges better and be able to compare different makes and models.

I understand the need for manufactorers to promote their products in the best light. The lack of any industry wide accepted method for testing at present understandably leads to the promotion of best case figures. If there was no approved method for publishing combined cycle fuel consumption figures for cars I`m sure we would see some astonishing claims for the cars we currently drive .

I am sure I could get close to 60 miles from a 14Ah battery, either on my Ezee or a Wisper if I kept demands low, terrain flat and put in significant effort. Regarding the Panasonic systems I could probably manage even more due to the way they ramp power down as speed increases. Similarly under certain conditions I can achieve an average of over 60mpg in my diesel powered Passatt estate, but the published figure is 47mpg which is more realistic over a longer period of mixed driving.

If you and Andrew do get your BEBA hats on and heads together to think about establishing a voluntary standard for testing and publishing performance information I think it would help move the industry forward.
I have lost count of the number of posts I have seen on here where people are either unsure of what they should be expecting from their battery, or are assuming best case scenario claims can be easily realised. Going back to my obsession with making decisions based on data, such a move would really help.

Couple of suggestions of things to add to make it perfect - the impact of lower temperatures, increased wieght and battery age (within predictable bands)

All the best - I`d always be happy to help test on my daily commute!

Bob_about

 

[Fecn]

I am sure I could get close to 60 miles from a 14Ah battery, either on my Ezee or a Wisper if I kept demands low, terrain flat and put in significant effort. Regarding the Panasonic systems I could probably manage even more due to the way they ramp power down as speed increases.

My mate Si did 62 miles on a single 10Ah 25.9V panasonic battery... but he's a fit young thing who runs about 10 miles a day anyway and weighs about 2/3 of what I do. On the same journey, I was getting more like 30 miles per battery. Around my local hills I can drain the same battery in less than 20 miles (or if the temperatures are close to freezing, I can do it in <15 miles)

The range figures really are pretty meaningless unless a standardised way of testing is implemented.

 

[flecc]

Andrew, who is one of the founding BEBA members has suggested that BEBA devise a set of tests and offer all bike manufacturers the opportunity to submit their bikes for testing. It would be possible hold a day at a hired track or circuit (Brands Hatch or similar). Manufacturers or representatives would be invited to be present to make sure there is no foul play, but all would be controlled by BEBA officials, who would not be allowed to test their own bikes. Figures from the test would be available on the BEBA web site.

Maybe our resident Guru would come along to ensure impartiality?

Any comments?

All the best

David

I've always seen two major and insurmountable problems with e-bike track testing for range:

1) Rider input will vary and substantially alter what is achieved.

2) Rider effort power applying torque measuring systems can multiply the diferences in rider ability.

Fecn's 2 to 1 range difference example of him (30 miles) and his friend Si (62 miles) on the same bikes on the same route riding together is a perfect example illustrating both circumstances above, since they were riding Panasonic unit equipped models.

Essentially e-bikes are hybrid vehicles with two true power sources, the cyclist and the motor. The inability to accurately determine and control rider input differences under dynamic circumstances makes direct comparative range testing of little to no value. Even using the same rider for every test will produce marked inconsistencies due to day to day variations of rider mood, tiredness, feelings about the bike type and system used and personal compatibility with those.
.

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

I've always seen two major and insurmountable problems with e-bike track testing for range:

1) Rider input will vary and substantially alter what is achieved.

2) Rider effort power applying torque measuring systems can multiply the diferences in rider ability.

Fecn's 2 to 1 range difference example of him (30 miles) and his friend Si (62 miles) on the same bikes on the same route riding together is a perfect example illustrating both circumstances above, since they were riding Panasonic unit equipped models.

Essentially e-bikes are hybrid vehicles with two true power sources, the cyclist and the motor. The inability to accurately determine and control rider input differences under dynamic circumstances makes direct comparative range testing of little to no value. Even using the same rider for every test will produce marked inconsistencies due to day to day variations of rider mood, tiredness, feelings about the bike type and system used and personal compatibility with those.
.

As Flecc explained he is totally right here. The range will always vary from person to person and even the detailed data of the range might be misleading.

As David of Wisper said the manufacturers try to promte their bikes in the best possible marketing light but its true that on the other hand the competition will do the same. I would however agree that even this detailed data will be more useful to the end consumer than just the plain words of 50 or 60 miles without explanation how this result has been achieved and what sorts of range normally battery can give.

Assuming the average power consumption is 15watts hours/ mile and i.e 37V 10Ah pack would give 24.66 miles. To me it sounds very fair to the customer as it will show him the reality he/she will be expecting.

In the very hilly areas the power consumption might be even 25wh/mile. Anyway, got to go

best regards

Andrew

 

[themutiny]

15wh/mile is about right for an Ezee/Wisper, but is positively profligate for a Cytronex, which is typically less than half that.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

The problems is, people want (quite understandably) to know what to expect from their bikes. The tests I am running in China are all with the same rider to try and eliminate the worst effects of rider differential and are simply for comparisons between the Wisper range. If course if Nick was to test all the bikes by the end of the testing program he would be so fit and powerful that we would need to start the tests again!

Unless we devise a robot to input exactly the same power on all bikes and run them on a test bed these figures will always be subjective. However if we were to do the testing on a circuit we could involve a local cycling club to lend a hand minimising the differences.

As Mutiny says 7.5Wh for 1 mile is absolutely achievable on most bikes but that certainly is not the norm.

What do you suggest Flecc?

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

15wh/mile is about right for an Ezee/Wisper, but is positively profligate for a Cytronex, which is typically less than half that.

Likewise for the new Panasonic unit, I've personally recorded usages of 5 to 7.4 wh/mile at the age of 71. By contrast, I routinely consumed 24 wh/mile on my two standard eZee bikes, Torq 1 and Quando.

Fecn's friend Si above recorded 4.2 wh/mile on the long trip mentioned, barely over a one sixth of my eZee bike examples.
.

 

[flecc]

What do you suggest Flecc?

All the best

David

We discussed this extensively in the earlier days of the forum David, and I have no solution. My response to themutiny above illustrates just how wildly the figures can vary, even for one 71 year old.

When I reviewed the Kalkhoff Agattu as a possible Lafree replacement for my website, I carefully spelled out the varying ranges realisable according to rider, terrain and rider intentions and circumstances with this paragraph:

It seems to me that a free rolling bike like this with it's very long range battery gives considerable flexibility. An owner in average territory who has settled on a easy to get range of, lets say, 35 miles (56 km), could at any time extend that by 10 or 15 miles (16 to 24 km) if the need arose since the additional cycling effort would be so small. It's always very difficult to predict ranges for others, but with power left on most of the time, and across the spectrum from rather heavy rider with hills, to very fit regular cyclist in easy territory, ranges should span from 30 to 50 miles. Using the handlebar Off button more often when the going is easy will add to those in proportion to the rider's fitness.

I can't really improve on that. A to B magazine on exactly the same bike said 30 to 46 miles.
.

 

[eTim]

I would have thought that a machine that could test ebikes in a controlled environment would be the only way a comparative measure between systems could be achieved. I doubt that the results would be 'real world' but they could be normalised for the real world and would provide a better guide for consumers.