London E-bike owners needed!

Artstu · Jan 29, 2016

Why only London cyclists? and why can't you have an online survey?

Artstu · Jan 29, 2016

Thanks, seems strange to me, but they must have their reasons.

The feedback our client receives from participants will go towards improving e-bikes and pedal bikes of the future

Kuorider · Jan 29, 2016

You may find this site interesting . http://www.hembrow.eu/studytour/ The real problem is infrastructure rather than bikes. You can improve bikes all you like but the Cyclist Death trap that is London traffic will prevail.

flecc · Jan 29, 2016

Kuorider said:
You can improve bikes all you like but the Cyclist Death trap that is London traffic will prevail.

Not necessarily.

Most years London suffers 14 or more cycling deaths, and last year in the first six months there were 8, right on target for the usual end.

But after huge publicity about the issue, mainly aimed at cyclists to help them make safer decisions, the second half of the year had zero deaths, yes, no deaths at all in the second half for the only time in all the years I've known and lived in the area.

During that death-free six months in London there were over 55 million cycle commuting journeys alone, plus many other incidental trips for other purposes, and there's been no deaths in this year to date when normally there might already have been the first one. To bring this down to individual risk, I'd have to cycle to and from a five day week job for 120,000 years to do that 55 million journeys.

This current outcome without a single death indicates London is far from being a cycling deathtrap when all involved simply take due care and ride and drive sensibly.
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Kuorider · Jan 29, 2016

Good points there flecc, nice to see the deaths at zero for a change. Let's hope it stays that way. I found the reports of those young Ladies crushed by tipper trucks quite unsettling. What of the unknown numbers dissuaded from cycling or just given up ?, do kids cycle to school, elderly to shops etc. ? Any records kept on near misses and riders knocked off bikes /non fatal hit & runs ? It's notable in the Hembrow videos that no one wears helmets and rides are largely continuous with very limited stopping or interaction with motor traffic. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of London cyclists on this.

flecc · Jan 29, 2016

Kuorider said:
Good points there flecc, nice to see the deaths at zero for a change. Let's hope it stays that way. I found the reports of those young Ladies crushed by tipper trucks quite unsettling. What of the unknown numbers dissuaded from cycling or just given up ?, do kids cycle to school, elderly to shops etc. ? Any records kept on near misses and riders knocked off bikes /non fatal hit & runs ? It's notable in the Hembrow videos that no one wears helmets and rides are largely continuous with very limited stopping or interaction with motor traffic. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of London cyclists on this.

Why do you respond to good news with such negativity? I'm not saying everything is perfect, it isn't anywhere, not even in the so called "safe" countries like the Netherlands where a quarter of our population kill almost twice as many cyclists each year* despite their fancy cyclepaths.

The point of my above post was to show that the secret of real safety lies in the people. The only thing different in the last 6 months of last year compared to the first 6 months was peoples behaviour, nothing else changed, showing that is what counts, not infrastructure or anything else, as the Netherlands also proves.

I'm a London cyclist, have been for a very long time in both inner and outer London and my behaviour has assured me of remaining uninjured or killed.

It's in London that cycling has more than doubled in the last decade, indicating little evidence of anyone giving up on cycling and less evidence than elsewhere of choosing not to cycle through safety fears.

A fairly high proportion of London commuting cyclist wear helmets, but that's irrelevant to this issue since head injury risks and deaths are almost non-existent here.

Very few children cycle to school in London, but we can't say what the reason for that is. Most are driven or walked to school by parents for a host of safety reasons other than traffic, assault or abduction fears being prominent.

As for the other things you mention like being knocked off bikes etc, not only are they not unique to London, the risks are more often higher elsewhere. Below I post an extract from a DfT study of cycling accidents nationally, showing that the greatest risks are on the sort of roads and speed conditions not often found in London:

• The study found that rural roads present particular challenges for cyclists, as the risk of being killed is much higher than for other roads. Almost half of cyclist fatalities occurred on rural roads, and the proportion of collisions on these roads increases for those aged 40+ years. Casualty severity was found to increase with the posted speed limit, and so measures to reduce traffic speeds in rural areas may benefit cyclists.

• Collisions at night/in the dark were more likely to result in a fatality, and rural roads present particular difficulties, as not only are the speed limits generally higher but the roads are often unlit. A detailed examination of these accidents found that the bicycle was commonly impacted in the rear by the vehicle.

* Netherlands population 16.8 million, 200 annual cycling deaths.

UK population 64 million, 110 cycling deaths annually.

anotherkiwi · Jan 29, 2016

More damned lies er statistics

31.2% use their bicycle daily NL,
8% use their bike more than 3 times a week UK.
=
UK: 5,120,000 cyclists and 110 deaths
NL: 5,304,000 cyclists and 200 deaths

From Wikipedia:
"Research in 2013 showed that 60% of fatal cycling accidents took place at junctions and in two out of five of those accidents, cyclists were not given priority by the driver.
What must be taken into account in understanding these figures, is the high rate of cycling in the Netherlands: people are, in fact, statistically more likely to die by drowning in the Netherlands than by cycling.
Also to be taken into account is that overall traffic safety in the Netherlands is the best in Europe with 45 deaths per million inhabitants per year"

I think the key is the sheer number of kilometres that a Dutch person rides per year compared to an English cyclist. And Dutch drivers seem to be just as keen to refuse priority to cyclists as drivers all over the world. I am far more scared of intersections than riding home in the middle of the night (I have very good lights).

flecc · Jan 29, 2016

anotherkiwi said:
More damned lies er statistics

31.2% use their bicycle daily NL,
8% use their bike more than 3 times a week UK.
=
UK: 5,120,000 cyclists and 110 deaths
NL: 5,304,000 cyclists and 200 deaths

From Wikipedia:
"Research in 2013 showed that 60% of fatal cycling accidents took place at junctions and in two out of five of those accidents, cyclists were not given priority by the driver.
What must be taken into account in understanding these figures, is the high rate of cycling in the Netherlands: people are, in fact, statistically more likely to die by drowning in the Netherlands than by cycling.
Also to be taken into account is that overall traffic safety in the Netherlands is the best in Europe with 45 deaths per million inhabitants per year"

I think the key is the sheer number of kilometres that a Dutch person rides per year compared to an English cyclist. And Dutch drivers seem to be just as keen to refuse priority to cyclists as drivers all over the world. I am far more scared of intersections than riding home in the middle of the night (I have very good lights).

Of course I'm well aware of the disparity in cycling rates and drew attention to that in my posts on this last year, but it's not relevant to my above post.

It's clear that the cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands still fails to sufficiently protect their cyclists against death, while the actions of cyclists and drivers did do so perfectly in London in the second half year in question.

Thus illustrating my point that the secret of safety lies primarily and overwhelmingly in the people, not in any other measures, including infrastructure.

I can even show you that their "wonderful" Netherlands infrastructure kills cyclists!
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Kuorider · Jan 29, 2016

Hi, again flecc, I am a bit lost on your negativity bit, but let that be. My natural cynicism is born from experience. While I agree with your comment about behaviour changes, might that behaviour include some more riders simply stopping cycling ? Or have the weak been killed off ? I am oddly still haunted by the death, or should that be killing, of that young newly married Chinese girl. Can you imagine for a second the utter grief and despair of her young husband? A totally unnecessary death. And that killing of the French girl, just a statistic ? I wonder how her family think about that ? how comforting it must be to be just one of eight. Any analysis of the type of killer vehicle would make interesting reading. I admit to some bias because 40 years back my best friend and his new wife were killed by a speeding tipper truck dumping it's 20 tons of gravel on to their car near Perth.
On the Netherlands deaths, as AK points out you have to consider the vast difference in cycle use. Try parking your bike in central Amsterdam, packed thick with bikes. Also how many deaths there may be due to other factors, alcohol, inattention and just bad luck. The only accident I saw in Holland was a guy who simply fell off his bike in the centre of Amsterdam, nothing anywhere near him. The same fall on Tower Bridge would have had a much different outcome.
I feel that the rural information while both correct and interesting is not really relevant here as this discussion is focused on London. The DfT desire to lower rural speed limits is as usual more about penalty revenue rather about any concern for cyclists whom they regard as non revenue road users. The Experienced London cyclist is a breed apart found nowhere else and no doubt contributes to their survival. I cycle regularly with two friends, both born and bred Londoners, both retired here, a Barrister and a Journalist who regularly express their pleasure on cycling on roads where four cars per hour is a traffic jam. I strongly suspect that the publicity inspired behaviour improvement will soon revert to type. I do hope I am wrong, but given the choice of riding round Victoria Park or the Vondelpark, I know which one I would prefer.
Might you consider joining in our Pedal on Parliament demo this spring, it's all about improving our pathetic cycling infrastructure http://pedalonparliament.org/ .You would be most welcome. Thanks for your interesting and courteous discussion.

flecc · Jan 29, 2016

Of course I wouldn't disagreed with any of that Kuorider, all very true. But I fear that as with anotherkiwi that the point I'm making is still being lost, as your last remark shows.

It's quite simply that these outcomes are in peoples hands, accidents are caused, they don't "just happen", and cyclists alone can make a world of difference as the last half of last year showed.

That London "no deaths" situation was and remains perfect after seven months now. There hasn't been a previous seven months like that ever as far as I can tell. A few years ago the death toll in one year alone hit 22. The change is almost entirely due to the message getting through and being acted upon.

The Netherlands 200 annual deaths is a very long way from perfect, and that's true regardless of how often they cycle. Also lets not forget I'm posting about London daily commuters who are cycling as frequently as the Dutch.

The only way we'll maintain this current excellent London position is for everyone to continue as they've been doing since late June last year.. And thats why I'm strugging to stop anyone from deflecting my contention into other factors.

Take the Dutch cyclepaths and then wonder why they can still kill 200 each year. Well, the Dutch know some of the answers, and one of the key ones is that a shocking 40% kill themselves with no other person or vehicle involved, that's 80 of those deaths alone from that cause and often on those cyclepaths.

In the UK it's just 16% who kill themselves with no others involved.

Why the disparity? Well we know that with a moment's thought, it's the well known phenomenon that the safer people feel, the more risks they take and the more careless they can become. Our cyclists, particularly in London, often say they don't feel safe, but no doubt the Dutch on their cyclepaths feel very safe. That is bound to reflect on the care taken by the respective cyclists.

We've measured that ourselves. After the seat belt law was introduced, the government's Roads Research Laboratory found that car driver's speeds increased by a clear 10% on average, which they put down to the feeling more safe effect. Many years earlier after 1973 whe the compulsory motorcyce helmet law was introduced I remember a similar comment made but can't remember the source of that now.

This all adds up to what I'm trying to get across, that the answer for complete safety is in ourselves much more than any other factor, including segregation as the Dutch now know.

The near miracle that's been achieved in the last seven months in London can largely continue and even go nationwide once everyone admits they can achieve it and then concentrate on that, rather than the usual blaming of anyone or anything else. It's time for all of us to stop these senseless cyclist deaths.
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Kuorider · Jan 29, 2016

Could a comparison be made with a similar city in the Netherlands if there is such a thing, rather than the whole country ?. I was unaware of the vast improvement in London until you pointed it out. (Only newsworthy if someone dies). I cannot be alone in hoping this situation prevails. Can there be a factor in the nationalities of victims? possibly the unfamiliarity with UK traffic plus a moments inattention leading to a simple fatal error. If you have ever driven in central Paris you will know how it feels to be in apparently chaotic traffic, yet my Daughter there just breezes through the mayhem of the Etoile with the panache of a local in her somewhat dented Citroen. I also remember well the 'Volvo' factor of the 60's 'it's safe to crash' leading to an upturn in accidents. How weird seat belts seemed then in a road car.
Your earlier point on accidents after dark reminded me of an earlier post of mine when I made a point about the vast variance in Cycle lighting being a possible cause of lack of perception by drivers. I suggested a standardised lighting layout which clearly said 'Bike' much how Marine or Aviation lighting works for saftey.The current personalised mess of lights on bikes is unhelpful at best to a tired driver looking through a rain splattered window with tired eyes against the ever increasing background light pollution of over bright car headlamps and City shopfronts. The random bobbing about at different heights of these daft helmet lights makes no sense whatsoever. Any one remember the 'Dim Dip' campaign leading to lower light levels all round and an easier life for the Mk 1 eyeball.
This is a good thread,can we have more contributions. I'm off as the Krug 64 is calling.

cwah · Jan 29, 2016

I'm long time london ebiker and would like to participate.

But unfortunately I work monday to friday and it makes no sense for me to take a day off to participate...

Too ba

flecc · Jan 29, 2016

Kuorider said:
Could a comparison be made with a similar city in the Netherlands if there is such a thing, rather than the whole country ?. I was unaware of the vast improvement in London until you pointed it out. (Only newsworthy if someone dies). I cannot be alone in hoping this situation prevails. Can there be a factor in the nationalities of victims? possibly the unfamiliarity with UK traffic plus a moments inattention leading to a simple fatal error.

There isn't a similar city unfortunately, very much smaller scales and very different environments. Also there's a lack of city data there, ours being in part due to having the TfL authority. It's the opposite here in the UK, excellent London data but poor national data.

I don't think nationality is a big factor for two reasons. One is that those killed are invariably regular cyclists, everyday commuters who have gotten used to conditions and are on regular well known routes. The other is that I concentrated on last year, the gender factor with such an unbalanced number of female deaths.

If any of the other factors were relevant, there wouldn't be that gender factor, since trucks, road conditions, nationality etc cannot discriminate on gender grounds.

No matter how much we look elsewhere for excuses, there's only one thing that can produce quick and near perfect results, and that's all of us, as the last seven months in London have proved beyond any possible doubt.
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Kuorider · Jan 30, 2016

cwah said:
I'm long time london ebiker and would like to participate.

But unfortunately I work monday to friday and it makes no sense for me to take a day off to participate...

Too ba

Cwah,you must be the very man they are looking for,check if they will do evening or weekend appointments.

Kuorider · Jan 30, 2016

flecc said:
If any of the other factors were relevant, there wouldn't be that gender factor, since trucks, road conditions, nationality etc cannot discriminate on gender grounds.

But might the drivers feel more confident using their bully boy tactics on a lone woman rather than risk the wrath of a super fit lad on his mtb. It will be interesting to see how things continue.

flecc · Jan 30, 2016

Kuorider said:
But might the drivers feel more confident using their bully boy tactics on a lone woman rather than risk the wrath of a super fit lad on his mtb. It will be interesting to see how things continue.

This we know is definitely not true. If you think back to last year's posts on this subject, you'll remember that the victims were crushed by being in the unsighted l/h blind area, the truck drivers unable to see the bike and rider. It was the cause of every bike/truck death and has been for a long time.

It's been by riders finally learning not to be in that area at junctions that the deaths have ceased. The repeater indicators, warning buzzers and warning notices along the sides of London's trucks have assisted the riders to observe that simple safety measure.
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Kuorider · Jan 30, 2016

You have probably seen this from the Evening Standard 24/6/15 , but those outside London may not have '' .Addressing HGV deaths is necessary to “feminise” cycling in London. As Wollaston puts it: “We won’t get more women cycling until we stop this avoidable carnage from lorries.” And Gilligan is desperate to “de-Lycrafy” cycling in London: “It’s too male, too young and too middle class. The key to broadening its appeal ultimately is segregated lanes and quiet roads.” Mr Gilligan is clearly calling for infrastructure improvements and it appears that the cycle protest at Banks supports this as does the London Cycling Campaign website. There appears to be calls all over London for more safe cycling space, another being Quietway 2, no doubt lots more. Even setting aside the statistics the Dutch pattern is just so much more pleasant in every respect. So I still stand by my original point that infrastructure improvement is needed rather than a special bike for London.

cwah · Jan 30, 2016

On london road I mostly see men injured on the side... they all try to squeeze on any small gap that make very dangerous. They also try to pass even when car driver slow down a bit for whatever reason....

However, these accident not involving lorries may not all be recorded as they are... sort of... minor.

So i'd guess more accident in general for men. But more death for women won't don't understand they can't stand next to a lorry on red light...

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