Long-Term, Reliable FW Kit - does it exist?

[Warwick]

Every ebike I have had so far, whether it be off the shelf or conversion, has had electrical issues. I am getting a little tired of things going wrong on my main form of commuting transport.

So, is there a kit that offers VERY good waterproofing and long-term reliability? I don't want one that has a controller that goes into a bag with holes cut in it or any other such bodge. I also want a controller that won't go belly up at the merest hint of moisture.

Am I asking too much? If there is such a beast, please point me in its direction.

 

[Woosh]

Hello warwick,
I am not trying to sell you anything, but some kits are actually quite reliable.
The key is of course how well the kit resists to humidity and water ingress.
Rear geared hub motors are particularly well shielded, the cable exits naturally toward the ground and you can easily pack some grease in the cable channel to push the protection further. The reason I say that geared hub motors are best for this application is because the gearbox is much smaller and lighter than the crank drive motors, the reduction in unsprung weight and better weather protection of the hub motor casing prolongs the life of the gearbox and motor. Direct drive motors are only worth considering when you need 25+mph capability.
Controllers that are integrated into the base of the battery cradle are also fairly well protected. Again, you can add grease to the metal prongs that connect the controller to the battery to push protection further.
LCDs: now this is my bug bear. LCDs can be fogged up. If you want the ultimate protection, forgo the LCD. If you can't, then choose a smaller one, less chance for it to get fogged up.
Cable channels: if you can, add them. The cables look like invincible against the elements, trust me, they are not. Give them added protection if you can.

 

[Warwick]

Thanks Woosh. My latest woes are with a rear hub drive/integrated controller machine. I've also had issues with a Electric Bike Conversions FW kit and a Woosh Sirocco CDL mid-drive machine. Hence my frustration and desire to find a truly waterproof kit. Funnily enough, all the displays have been fine.

 

[Woosh]

Yes, I remember some of it. Andy did deal with your queries about Sirocco CDL but you decided not to keep it. I must say we have gone some distance since making the Sirocco CDL. The weakness of that bike is the unsprung weight of the battery at the rear, making the bike wiggle its rear. The very early 15AH battery was much heavier than now. If you look at recent posted stories of Woosh bikes, Roybut just sold his Karoo after a year and 3 days after putting it up for sale, 2118km on the clock, no trouble. NealH still rides his 2-3 year old Woosh BPM kit, no trouble.
If you build another bike for yourself, take a look at the new Woosh Rio MTB. Everything I recommend is on it.

 

[Warwick]

There you go too salesy on me, I'm afraid. I'm looking quite specifically for a kit & off you go on a tangent trying to flog a bike...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

E I don't want one that has a controller that goes into a bag with holes cut in it or any other such bodge.

I'm not too sure if I misunderstand your reasoning, but I would say that installing the controller in a bag with a hole cut in it is very waterproof - more so than most OEM solutions. I prefer to have my connectors in there rather than the external "waterproof" connectors that aren't.

Hub motors, except some free-hub ones are also very waterproof, provided that they're installed properly and not left out in the rain with the bike on a prop-stand with the axle pointing upwards.

When you install a kit, you're the one in charge of waterproofing. If you get water ingress, you look at how it happened and introduce a repair that includes a countermeasure. That's not a difficult concept.

As Woosh said, the LED/LCD control panels are the worst offenders, and that's true of any ebike no matter how much you pay. It's not limited to cheap kits.

I used to use cheap non-waterproof watt-meters, so I made some little clear vacuum-formed covers to go over them. You'd be surprised how easy it is to mould a cover out of a block of wood (as a pattern), a piece of plastic from an old bubble pack and a hot air gun.

Personally, I'd keep away from the big direct drive motors, I've seen water in a few of them. You need to take special precautions with those.

 

[Woosh]

There you go too salesy on me, I'm afraid. I'm looking quite specifically for a kit & off you go on a tangent trying to flog a bike...

warwick, I suggested you look at the way the electrics is put on the Rio. If I was to suggest to you a kit, that would be the front BPM with 15AH HL battery.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits#frontbpmkit
Same motor as NealH has bought but with Lishui HL1260 intergrated controller.

PS: and a leftside pedal sensor.

 

[Ruadh495]

Something I've suspected for a while is that generic Chinese kits (like the EBC one) vary massively in reliability. If you get a good one it's good, but you're not guaranteed to get a good one.

I've got over 7000 every day miles on an EBC front kit (I suspect the same one you had) and have had no trouble at all (wish the rest of the bike was as reliable, on my third rear hub). My controller doesn't even live in a bag anymore, it's bolted to the battery mount, albeit in a fairly protected position up by the steering head and behind the battery (I have my battery mounted over the front wheel, odd place but it works for me). The only weather protection I've added is to slip a length of old inner tube over each connector and secure each end around the wires with a small zip tie.

This is a bike that's used 2 hours a day, 5 days a week whatever the weather. If it's really raining I do use a cape which also protects the LCD a bit, but if it's just a bit damp (like yesterday morning) I don't bother. It does get parked indoors at both ends of the commute, which helps a lot.

I actually think having "naked" electronics helps. The casings are fairly water resistant and if they get a bit of rain on them it soon dries, as opposed to being sat in a wet bag with moisture seeping into everything.

The other thing is that I would rather leave my bike dirty than use a pressure washer on it. I'll wash it by hand (about twice a year) but only the bits which get dirty (basically the bottom half and away from the electronics). I do have full mudguards and a big mudflap on the front.

 

[Woosh]

Something I've suspected for a while is that generic Chinese kits (like the EBC one) vary massively in reliability.

I think it's only partially true. The reliability varies with the donnor bike, the terrain and the skill of the owner in wiring.
I also sell CD kits where the wiring is simply plug and play and the installation is only bolting the motor to the bottom bracket, there is no such wide change.

 

[Ruadh495]

Aren't most kits "plug and play"? I certainly didn't have to solder anything on the EBC kit, though it's something I would consider if the connectors become a problem.

It does occur to me that I have done my kit a big favour by front mounting everything. All my wiring is static except the cable for the PAS sensor, nothing else passes the steering head. It's one of the reasons I did it that way, motorcycle experience...

 

[Woosh]

I do like the triangle kit back idea instead of coiling the cables around the tubes. When we do conversions for customers, we cut the cables to size, solder and use heat shrink tubes, no kit bag.

 

[Ruadh495]

I do like the triangle kit back idea instead of coiling the cables around the tubes. When we do conversions for customers, we cut the cables to size, solder and use heat shrink tubes, no kit bag.

I did consider cutting the connectors out, along with excess cable, and doing that. It's the only way I know to get a totally reliable electrical connection. In the end I decided I'd do it if the connectors became a problem and they haven't. There is rather a lot of excess cable though, not the tidiest.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Something I've suspected for a while is that generic Chinese kits (like the EBC one) vary massively in reliability.

I don't think that's true at all. I've built/converted about 30 bikes using standard cheap Chinese stuff, plus, I've repaired a lot of other people's bikes with the same stuff. I think in six years, I had one throttle break when I was holding it full on and hit a bump, I had one controller that melted its tracks because I increased the current, and one that melted the phase wires due to rider going too slow up a very long steep hill.

I've fixed a few that had water in the control panel, the odd motor bearing and a few with water in the motor.

There's a lot more that the kit owner/installer can do to mess things up. I'd say that 50% of the installations I see, the motor is upside down. Other common faults are:

• Cable ties too tight
• Wires pulled too tight
• Motor connector not fully inserted
• Wrong connector wire sequence in mix and match kits
• PAS not installed properly

Then add the faults that the owner can make after installation:

• Going up hills too slowly
• Leaving bike out in the rain
• Messing with controller settings
• Chain comes off and damages PAS
• Trying to fast charge with a different charger
• Riding on the beach when the tide's out
• Falling off and damaging the motor wire
• Damaging the motor wire when they take the wheel off to change tyre/fix puncture.

It's very easy to blame the stuff when you created the faults yourself.

 

[Woosh]

Chain comes off and damages PAS

that fault must have happened to quite a few.
I should think it's time that Chinese bikes have the left side PAS as standard.
You can't damage easily one of these:

This is how it's fitted to the left crank on the Woosh zephyr-2017, this one has also a water barrier:

 

[Ruadh495]

My actual experience is similar (though I haven't done anywhere near as many bikes). Low cost Chinese kit is reliable. That goes for things like smartphones as well. However other people seem to have problems, so the only thing I can think of is that quality varies.

One thing I'm intrigued by; how do you know a hub motor is upside down? The only thing I can think of is the cable cut out at the end of the axle. I think this should face up, so the cable emerges in a smooth curve (assuming the cable goes upwards) rather than over a sharp edge. However, if it faced down it could reduce water ingress...

 

[Woosh]

when the cable goes up, you need to make a plug for the cable channel to stop water getting in.
I also tape the cable and the motor axle.

 

[Benjahmin]

I think this should face up, so the cable emerges in a smooth curve (assuming the cable goes upwards) rather than over a sharp edge. However, if it faced down it could reduce water ingress...

Nooooo 'tother way surely? Have the axle cutout on the underside, let the cable come down through it, then loop it up the fork, so forming a drip loop. Any water that runs down the fork/cable will drip off and not go inside the cable tube/axle. Like this:

I know it looks a bit cumbersome but I've never caught it on anything yet.

This Ezee kit has done some 3500 miles. Controller mounted under front of rack, shielded by a bum! No water or electrical issues, only one small motor bearing problem, quickly sorted with John's help.

 

[gray198]

when the cable goes up, you need to make a plug for the cable channel to stop water getting in.
I also tape the cable and the motor axle.

Would the rubber electrical grommets do the job??

 

[Kinninvie]

I do like the triangle kit back idea instead of coiling the cables around the tubes. When we do conversions for customers, we cut the cables to size, solder and use heat shrink tubes, no kit bag.

My spare wire is all tucked into the small triangle bag at the front.
I prefer this to shortening them because I can guarantee if I did that the next bike I put it on will require longer wiring!
If you look closely you can just make out the blue battery bags at the rear.
Wekk, it does hold 14S 64Ah of batteries along with a full tool kit,spare tyre and tube and lots of spare room still.
I have just bought fron rack and panniers too as thinking of moving half the batteries forward for better balance.

 

[Woosh]

Would the rubber electrical grommets do the job??

No, I tried. I syringe the grease into the cable channel, clean off on the outside, the I make a 'hat' for the spindle with self amalgamating tape. I then put the rubber cover for the wheel nut back on. If the water gets inside the rubber cover, it will runs off the hat.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/self-amalgamating-waterproof-tape-10m-black-kw29g