Indeed Miles, Browns recumbent from the year 1900.See also Bicycling Science (3rd ed.), page 30, fig. 1.25
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Just one tiny snag though. With a rear motor and seated right above the rear wheel, opening the throttle and pedalling could only have one result:
Laying on ones back with the front wheel pointing at the sky!
The ultimate wheelie.
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blimey
sort of similar isnt it....i wonder if Brown was still alive would he be looking at his patent...unless he never had one..p.s....just noticed totally different as brown's never had the red button on right handle bar..
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Hi Keith,--------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is only my own personal view which no doubt i will get thrashed for and all the inovative things about your bikes will be mentioned that i have missed....first glance i thought it was something from that programme "scrapheap challenge".............second thoughts was it looked like it was just for sunday leisurely riding as the sat back design made me remember them pedelo boats at the sea side i used to go on as a kid, 5 minutes into that and my legs where finished, thirdly the one i looked at appeared on first glance to just have a black innertube at the rear, ok totally wrong but it was my first impression,forthly the price
Re: affordable ebike. I'm thinking of selling my Dahon MuP8 - have sent you details to your private messages.
http://waltersnextgenerationbicycles.com
Hello All
I have no problems with 'your comments' as I see them as free marketing information and most of the answers have already been addressed on the various pages of the website, if they are not clear, then I will just have to make them clearer, and those that haven't been addressed, will be shortly.
To me, this is no different to the sceptiscm that must have met the people who first designed the recumbent bicycles and trikes in the early eighties, or the people who pioneered the large scale sale of electric bikes in the early nineties. Both styles of machine having grown massively in popularity since those early days.
We knew full well how sceptical the british public would be, so we are also in the process of arranging to give bikes to certain businesses and organisations for trial use so that they can independantly verify our claims, of which we will publish on the website. Needless to say, we will also be contacting Velovision and A2b to see if they too, would be interested in doing a review.
... I'm also hoping that in the next couple of months when a demo bike is free, and if a certain 'Guru' who lives in a hilly area just outside London is interested, that he wouldn't mind doing an independant review as well... but that is a little way off yet.
Just a further note, I currently reside in the city of Leicester which some may know, has more than its' fair share of hills and it is around this area that the bike has largely been tested. We deliberately 'roughed it up' to make sure that it would do what we claim on the tin and as a result we made certain changes to the spec - eg, she now uses a SRAM P5 Cargo hub. The frame is made out of T45 steel, etc etc.
OOOOps... when I was writing the above reply, it was in response to 'Johnofcambridge' and the other replies received up to that point - but, by the time I pressed submit, all these other replies had come in.
There is already a commercial use bicycle doing quite nicely, it is called the 'Burrows 8 freight' and an electric 'chopper' style bicycle, again doing quite nicely is the 'HP Velo Technic Spirit'.
Browns bicycle is more closely related to the american 'Easy Racer' Long wheel recumbent Bikes than mine, which I like to think of as the type of bicycle that 'Harley Davison' would make if they ever went back into bicycle production.
Cheers
Andrew
Hello All
I have no problems with 'your comments' as I see them as free marketing information and most of the answers have already been addressed on the various pages of the website, if they are not clear, then I will just have to make them clearer, and those that haven't been addressed, will be shortly.
To me, this is no different to the sceptiscm that must have met the people who first designed the recumbent bicycles and trikes in the early eighties, or the people who pioneered the large scale sale of electric bikes in the early nineties. Both styles of machine having grown massively in popularity since those early days.
We knew full well how sceptical the british public would be, so we are also in the process of arranging to give bikes to certain businesses and organisations for trial use so that they can independantly verify our claims, of which we will publish on the website. Needless to say, we will also be contacting Velovision and A2b to see if they too, would be interested in doing a review.
... I'm also hoping that in the next couple of months when a demo bike is free, and if a certain 'Guru' who lives in a hilly area just outside London is interested, that he wouldn't mind doing an independant review as well... but that is a little way off yet.
Just a further note, I currently reside in the city of Leicester which some may know, has more than its' fair share of hills and it is around this area that the bike has largely been tested. We deliberately 'roughed it up' to make sure that it would do what we claim on the tin and as a result we made certain changes to the spec - eg, she now uses a SRAM P5 Cargo hub. The frame is made out of T45 steel, etc etc.
OOOOps... when I was writing the above reply, it was in response to 'Johnofcambridge' and the other replies received up to that point - but, by the time I pressed submit, all these other replies had come in.
There is already a commercial use bicycle doing quite nicely, it is called the 'Burrows 8 freight' and an electric 'chopper' style bicycle, again doing quite nicely is the 'HP Velo Technic Spirit'.
Browns bicycle is more closely related to the american 'Easy Racer' Long wheel recumbent Bikes than mine, which I like to think of as the type of bicycle that 'Harley Davison' would make if they ever went back into bicycle production.
Cheers
Andrew
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It's not always automatically scepticism Andrew, often just observations resulting from the knowledge built up from over 150 years of effort by tens of thousands of people in perfecting the bicycle.
I'm familiar with Mike Burrows 8-freight, but it's a special purpose load carrying machine which cannot begin to compare with a normal bike in many ways. I'm also very familiar with the advantages of recumbents and other feet forward designs, but also with the well established fact that rider for rider, they perform less well in hill climbing. Individual subjective observations don't in any way alter that. That's one reason why recumbents have never really enjoyed popular success despite the 80 odd years of their existence.
You'd probably be sceptical about my having an open mind, but I do have, and immediately saw the advantages of your design when it first appeared in Velovision, but also the disadvantages. As with every departure from the perfected diamond frame concept, it has narrower applications, so can only be of benefit when one or more of those benefits overrides the overall benefit of the conventional design. For most cyclists that won't be the case, but that doesn't make your design wrong, just one of narrower appeal and application like the 8-freight and recumbents.
It's that narrowness of application that has condemned so many of the earlier attempts to improve on the perfected bike, and in fact fashion has been far more successful than good design in this respect, as witness the "mountain bike".
I see that Brown 1900 design as being closer to yours, with just the longer wheelbase relating to the US Easy Racer style, but the differences between all three are very small in fact. The Velotechnik has a further forward seat than the Raleigh Chopper so will be ok with the BionX motor where the Chopper would not be with it's over-wheel seat. Your electric layout I see as much better with the forward batteries and front hub motor balancing the rider, any negative effects having no importance in what I see as your bike's applications.
Where reviewing is concerned, I made one exception with the Kalkhoff Agattu since that was the first viable replacement for the Giant Lafree Twist series for which I'd long run a support site. Otherwise I do not do bike reviews and have refused various offers from other manufacturers since I am retired and have neither the spare time nor the facilities to give an equitable service to all.
.
I'm familiar with Mike Burrows 8-freight, but it's a special purpose load carrying machine which cannot begin to compare with a normal bike in many ways. I'm also very familiar with the advantages of recumbents and other feet forward designs, but also with the well established fact that rider for rider, they perform less well in hill climbing. Individual subjective observations don't in any way alter that. That's one reason why recumbents have never really enjoyed popular success despite the 80 odd years of their existence.
You'd probably be sceptical about my having an open mind, but I do have, and immediately saw the advantages of your design when it first appeared in Velovision, but also the disadvantages. As with every departure from the perfected diamond frame concept, it has narrower applications, so can only be of benefit when one or more of those benefits overrides the overall benefit of the conventional design. For most cyclists that won't be the case, but that doesn't make your design wrong, just one of narrower appeal and application like the 8-freight and recumbents.
It's that narrowness of application that has condemned so many of the earlier attempts to improve on the perfected bike, and in fact fashion has been far more successful than good design in this respect, as witness the "mountain bike".
I see that Brown 1900 design as being closer to yours, with just the longer wheelbase relating to the US Easy Racer style, but the differences between all three are very small in fact. The Velotechnik has a further forward seat than the Raleigh Chopper so will be ok with the BionX motor where the Chopper would not be with it's over-wheel seat. Your electric layout I see as much better with the forward batteries and front hub motor balancing the rider, any negative effects having no importance in what I see as your bike's applications.
Where reviewing is concerned, I made one exception with the Kalkhoff Agattu since that was the first viable replacement for the Giant Lafree Twist series for which I'd long run a support site. Otherwise I do not do bike reviews and have refused various offers from other manufacturers since I am retired and have neither the spare time nor the facilities to give an equitable service to all.
.
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Hello Flecc
Also, I am not trying to convert cyclists who are happy as they are and managing with their diamond framed conventional bikes - ALL CYCLING, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO DO IT, IS GOOD as far as I'm concerned.
All I am doing is offering an alternative that can accommodate a wider range of people who wish to cycle and bringing to the fore, a viable machine that can be used by general industry for commercial commuting purposes.
Cheers
Andrew.
I have absolutely no intention of trying to perfect the bicycle, as different styles work for different people and /or at different times in their lives.
Hence why the MonVal has a motor and a very powerful one at that (still UK road legal). It will go up a hill just as fast as a conventionally styled E-bike - this I am more than happy to prove if anyone would like to take me on with their UK road legal specced bike. Remember, my bike was tested in hilly areas carrying a 16 stone (at the time) guy (me) + luggage - so if it couldn't climb, it would also not be able to haul a load - so then there would be no point to it!!!
Flecc, I am not at all sceptical about you having an open mind. The major benefits that this frame design has over the 'perfected diamond frame concept' is that it is easier to mount, alot more ergonomic and comfortable, thereby alleviating alot of the discomforts of the diamond frame especially over long rides. It also has a much greater carrying capacity, these attributes overrides the overall benefit of the conventional design.
Also, I am not trying to convert cyclists who are happy as they are and managing with their diamond framed conventional bikes - ALL CYCLING, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO DO IT, IS GOOD as far as I'm concerned.
All I am doing is offering an alternative that can accommodate a wider range of people who wish to cycle and bringing to the fore, a viable machine that can be used by general industry for commercial commuting purposes.
Accepted and not a problem, as I have stated before, because we were aware of the scepticism that we would be greeted with, we have arranged for various businesses and organisations to independantly trial and review the bike so as to validify our claims and dismiss any speculation of manufacturer hype.
Cheers
Andrew.
I happily accept that for an adequately powered bike Andrew, the disadvantage that feet forward designs have in hill climbing is only related to rider physiology and not inherent to the bike which is mechanically as good as any other, whatever the terrain. There's some common ground in the Giant Revive Spirit and your bike, though the Spirit is let down by inadequate power.
I'm with some of that too, though the comfort aspect isn't universal since some find the semi-reclined position and seat back more uncomfortable over time, and I'm one of them. Also when I say diamond frame I include the conventional step through since it's geometry is the same. Therefore I don't accept that your design's advantages override the benefits of a conventional design for the majority of riders. If they did, many of the close predecessors would have been far more successful.
Absolutely, it's the Holy Grail of cycle design and I wish you every success in that popularisation. I'm always in favour of the maximum choice.
I don't think that the scepticism you feel you will face need necessarily be encountered. That usually arises when someone promoting their design variation starts to insist it's better than the conventional perfected design for all or most purposes, thus inviting disbelief and rebuttal. I feel it's much better to concentrate on the advantage areas and freely acknowledge that there are also some disadvantages.
The other attitude that invites rebuttal is anyone contending that bike design is in the doldrums and it needs to move on. That usually comes from the younger half of the population who have grown up surrounded by rapid progress in such things as computers, electronic games, mobile phones and media devices, and who as a result cannot conceive the concept of design pinnacles.
As I say though, you have my best wishes for success and I will be following your progress in the future and look forward to the A to B and VeloVision reviews. I'm sure both will be very willing to review a different utility bike concept.
.
Here's a picture. I think his has a few more rough edges and workarounds, but the riding position appears similar. In his description he says that he arrived at this design to provide a comfortable posture and load carrying capacity
And this is the endless sphere thread in case anyone didn't see it.
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And here's the discontinued Giant Revive Spirit for anyone not familiar with it:
And a description from Nycewheels of New York site:
The Giant Revive Spirit electric bike is more than just comfortable it's ergonomically designed to put you in a completely neutral riding position.
And with your feet low and forward, it's safe and easy to start and stop, and you never have to come off the saddle to put your feet down. No pressure, no pain - all fun.
Some specifications
250 Watt electric motor provides pedal activated power assist
Lithium Ion Battery is Light and charges quickly at any AC outlet
Internal Drivetrain and Brakes make the Revive Spirit easy to maintain
Twist Throttle.
.
And a description from Nycewheels of New York site:
The Giant Revive Spirit electric bike is more than just comfortable it's ergonomically designed to put you in a completely neutral riding position.
And with your feet low and forward, it's safe and easy to start and stop, and you never have to come off the saddle to put your feet down. No pressure, no pain - all fun.
Some specifications
250 Watt electric motor provides pedal activated power assist
Lithium Ion Battery is Light and charges quickly at any AC outlet
Internal Drivetrain and Brakes make the Revive Spirit easy to maintain
Twist Throttle.
.
Difference between Browns 1900, Ez Racer and MonVal
Hello All
The attached images below, show clearly the similarity between Browns 1900 bicycle and the EZ racer, also for comparison, you will be able to see that the MonVal is clearly different and alot taller
Hello All
The attached images below, show clearly the similarity between Browns 1900 bicycle and the EZ racer, also for comparison, you will be able to see that the MonVal is clearly different and alot taller
Attachments
Well..........
I'd say both the EZ racer and your bike are comparable with the Brown machine.
The seating position, in relation to the back wheel, of the Brown bike, seems closer to yours than to the EZ (granted, your wheel is larger...).
Anyway, given that the illustration is an interpretation of a sketch, by someone who has a strong interest in long wheelbase recumbents......
I'd say both the EZ racer and your bike are comparable with the Brown machine.
The seating position, in relation to the back wheel, of the Brown bike, seems closer to yours than to the EZ (granted, your wheel is larger...).
Anyway, given that the illustration is an interpretation of a sketch, by someone who has a strong interest in long wheelbase recumbents......
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crank motors? I think they are crap motors since you will experience problems fixing worn out gears after the product's commercial end of life. Fortunately Panasonic bought Sanyo and might use their smart 2.3kg geared hub motor... I did not have the luck testing one yet, may be its the other way round- the hub motor is not robus enough and sanyo happy to be taken over by Panasonic.
About Bionx: yes we know an are curiously waiting to get more info since they sit around the corner...
About Bionx: yes we know an are curiously waiting to get more info since they sit around the corner...
Me too MilesAnyway, given that the illustration is an interpretation of a sketch, by someone who has a strong interest in long wheelbase recumbents......
, In fact, that is how the MonVal came into existence. You see, when I was originally looking for a comfortable alternative to the diamond frame design, it was the Long wheel base semi-recumbents like the EZ that stood out. Had they been more practical for my needs, I would have done something similar to the 'Scooterbike' or the 'HP Velotechnic Spirit' and simply added a decent motor kit and sold the combo as a package.Andrew
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