Loose spokes

[Deleted member 4366]

Spokes are a surprisingly complex product. The quality of the steel wire and the sophistication of the spoke forming process are extremely critical in producing a reliable spoke. Poor quality steel can never be compensated for by high quality wheel building, it will just defer the problem for a short while...

That's true and I couldn't agree more.
Frank says that he has sold loads of these kits and that this is not a common problem on his bikes. Indeed, I think we would have heard of it before if it was.
After a lifetime of solving problems in industry, I found that most problems have simple logical causes, and that compex technical explanations are normally put forward to mask the obvious. From my own limited experience, I have probably the cheapest Chinese spokes on my bikes and I run them at huge torques - much more than most people on this forum - and until now no spokes have broken.

 

[flecc]

From my own limited experience, I have probably the cheapest Chinese spokes on my bikes and I run them at huge torques - much more than most people on this forum - and until now no spokes have broken.

I agree, I've never had a problem with cheap spokes, most problems I've seen arising from poor initial builds which include very variable spokes tensions including slack ones. Post WW2 when only very poor spokes were available for a while, good builds with even tensions still ensured trouble free life.

 

[Mussels]

I don't believe that there's any problem with the the rim or the spokes, neither is it anything to do with roads or the way you ride. The spokes simply were not given enough tension when the wheel was built. They would appear tight when the wheel is stationary, but as soon as you apply torque from the motor, the leading spokes go loose and that allows the nipples to unscrew a bit making them go even looser. There is then too much and uneven tension and movement in the other spokes causing them to break.

You know when your spokes are not tight enough because they make creaking noises. When they do that, it's time to tighten them.

I had a manual rebuild on my 905 after the spokes kept breaking, within 4 miles it started falling apart again. SJS were of the opinion that the rim was weak, they replaced it and there were no more broken spokes.
I also borrowed a used 905 and broke the wheel on that so it wasn't a one off incident but a design issue, fortunately Wisper wanted to investigate it properly and the newer rims they use are much better. When I broke the wheel on my 906 they again looked for ways to improve the design, I haven't tried the latest ones.
Incidentally all the wheels I have broken have been back wheels, the 906 motor is in the front so I don't think it's because of the motor torque.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I had a manual rebuild on my 905 after the spokes kept breaking, within 4 miles it started falling apart again. SJS were of the opinion that the rim was weak, they replaced it and there were no more broken spokes.
I also borrowed a used 905 and broke the wheel on that so it wasn't a one off incident but a design issue, fortunately Wisper wanted to investigate it properly and the newer rims they use are much better. When I broke the wheel on my 906 they again looked for ways to improve the design, I haven't tried the latest ones.
Incidentally all the wheels I have broken have been back wheels, the 906 motor is in the front so I don't think it's because of the motor torque.

You may be right about the rims, and sure, there can be a lot of other causes for spokes breaking. Your wheel was rebuilt with a new rim and spokes and the problem went away, but what would have happened if the wheel was rebuilt with the original rim and spokes by someone who new what they were doing? It's a bit like when you go to the doctor when you're ill. He gives you some medicine and you get better. You praise the doctor and the medicine, and go again next time you're ill. What would have happened if you hadn't have gone to the doctor? Would you have got better sooner or with less ill effects. I never go to the doctor when I'm ill or injured or anything like that (except when I've got a clear mechanical problem like my hernia, which I couldn't fix myself), and I always get better. Maybe I'm just lucky, or my guardian angel sorts me out, or I've died in those universes and live on in a parallel one. Who knows?

 

[Mussels]

You may be right about the rims, and sure, there can be a lot of other causes for spokes breaking. Your wheel was rebuilt with a new rim and spokes and the problem went away, but what would have happened if the wheel was rebuilt with the original rim and spokes by someone who new what they were doing? It's a bit like when you go to the doctor when you're ill. He gives you some medicine and you get better. You praise the doctor and the medicine, and go again next time you're ill. What would have happened if you hadn't have gone to the doctor? Would you have got better sooner or with less ill effects. I never go to the doctor when I'm ill or injured or anything like that (except when I've got a clear mechanical problem like my hernia, which I couldn't fix myself), and I always get better. Maybe I'm just lucky, or my guardian angel sorts me out, or I've died in those universes and live on in a parallel one. Who knows?

I tried doing it on my own a few times, I got to the point of finding a regular stop where I'd change spokes on my way home. It was also rebuilt by a professional shop, I'd hope they didn't use the exisiting spokes as that's a bad thing.
Almost the same thing with a different bike, had a different bike shop replace a broken spoke and check the whole wheel. Made diddly difference and they kept on breaking.
I wouldn't change the rim for just one broken spoke, I have these happen occasionally and it's no big deal but when I repeatedly get busted spokes the only thing to fix it has been fitting a stronger rim. I could have tried just changing the spokes but when I'm paying for a rebuild it seems silly not to spend a few quid extra and get a strong rim.

Some people break wheels more than others, I can't explain why as I'm not especially heavy and don't abuse the bike. Unfortunately that leaves me resigned that standard wheels will never last with me riding and I budget in a new wheel whenever I get a bike.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

[/QUOTE]Some people break wheels more than others, I can't explain why as I'm not especially heavy and don't abuse the bike. Unfortunately that leaves me resigned that standard wheels will never last with me riding and I budget in a new wheel whenever I get a bike.[/QUOTE]
That's disappointing to hear. I guess there's a clue hidden in your name. I know racing cyclists spend a lot of time replacing spokes in state-of-the-art wheels. It makes me feel privileged to be old, fat and weak and have a cheapo bike with cheap Chinese cheese spokes, and not have to suffer problems.

 

[Synthman]

This is one problem my e-bike will never suffer from. If it had spoked wheels, I'm sure I would have had problems with it by now after hitting all those potholes and riding off kerbs.

 

[lee.pie]

Got my wheel back yesterday.

I had the rim and spokes replaced. Frank paid for it to be rebuilt by using Alan at just1bike.

The rim and spokes are of a much higher quality than the original.

Alan said that the spokes were pulling through the aluminium rim i.e the nipples were making the holes in the rim bigger. Which was what was causing them to come loose and break.

The wheel now feels solid and has no more flexing or wobbling.

I have only done one journey to work (today) so far so only time will tell but i feel now that all should be good.

I hope mine was just a one off and that the rest of Franks kits are of a better build, which i'm sure they must be or there would be more complaints.

Thanks for all of your help.

Lee