Making a decision based on data....

[Mussels]

I am surprised you find the 905 a bit small. I am 5.10 same as you I think? my inside leg is only 29 inch. But I find the 905 a comfortable fit. this bigger wheeled/bigger framed non carbon Alpino will probably be heavier as well wouldn't you think?

I find the reach a bit short even though I have the bars as far forward as they will go and I have the saddle as far back as that will go. The old seat post was too short and I got a longer one but it's still not quite right yet.

Mussels, so the Contis were ok then? I'm going for my first icy commute tomorrow

I had about 30 psi in each tyre and rode across sheet ice without falling off, experience tells me normal tyres would have slipped. I'm not as confident as I was on studs but as long as there are no sudden changes of speed or direction you should be OK.

 

[fishingpaul]

An electric bike is a lot easier on the hills,however 40 miles on a single charge is only possible on a few electric bikes in very good conditions and with a new battery,extra weight strong wind or hills or even the type of surface for example gravel or mud can contribute to a less than stated manufacturers range,if you ever run out of power you will be wishing you were on your old bike.

 

[Dynamic Position]

I have tried the route on my current old heavy steel mountain bike – it took over 1 ½ hours, the hills slowed me to a snails pace, and the round trip left me quite tired (poor old me!). I have therefore concluded that I don’t think it’s a viable proposition on a daily basis on my current bike, so need to buy something else.


So how do I make a decision without real data on what the daily commute would be like, other than how hard it is on a conventional bike?


Anyone with advice on how they made their decisions to commit?

Cheers

Bob_about

Bob,

I was in your position last year when my Raleigh P4000 started to fail beyond economical repair. Though I was used to commuting by bike, my decision to look for an electric bike was taken because I was diagnosed with high blood pressure. I spent a little time looking at e-bikes on the internet and accidentally stumbled on the Pedelec Forums when searching for CYTRONEX BIKES. I consider myself lucky because I was able to gleen a lot of information from the various threads. What information I could not ascertain Pedelec members answered, with Flecc being very helpful. I probably would have bought a Cytronex Trek if there had been one in stock. I took about 6 months looking at the data on a lot of e-bikes and e-kits. In the end I narrowed my choice down to Cytronex, Proconnect S and the Tasman.
I ended up ordering the Proconnect S because Cytronex was still not available and 50 Cycles were expecting to get Kalkhoff in stock - though I did have concerns at buying a bike without trying.

The Proconnect S was a good choice, my commute times were cut by a third and even without power my commute was a couple of minutes faster. The Proconnect S has managed every hill with ease. The battery range is about 40 miles.

With 6 months experience now, I can now see where my initial thinking went wrong and what might be considered as negative points.

The average speed depends mostly on the terrain. The biggest gains over a conventional bike are made on the up-side of hills, but the bike speed on the hill is slower than I expected it would be.

I get a lot of conventional lycra clad cyclists trying to race (keep up), which spoils the ride a little.

I thought that 21 mph would be adequate!

Given your level of fitness perhaps the new Cytronex bikes with extra batteries might be more suitable for your commute? Given the recent weather and flooding expectations perhaps we should all be buying a kayak!

 

[themutiny]

Hi Bob

I have seen various recommendations made to you, ranging from Wispers to Kalkhoffs to Cytronex. All the usual suspects in fact .

I would suggest that your first decision should be whether to go crank drive (panasonic, yamaha) or hub (Suzhou Bafang, Tonxgin). If you are a fit individual, you may not like the cadence restrictions that the crank design forces on you, however I think you will get more range and possibly better battery life overall.

If you don't like cadence restriction (and personally I hate it, and I'm a pretty fit rider) then you have to look at the hub designs.

I have both an Ezee (Suzhou Bafang) and a Cytronex (Tonxgin), and would make the following observations, given your intended commute.

The Ezee (which would be similar to the Wisper in many respects, throttle controlled, big battery, powerful motor) is a good bike, and with sufficient batteries could cope with the commute. It would certainly take the sting out of the hills. It could achieve a very high average speed. It would be easier than a normal bike. Much easier.

The downsides:

Cycling without power assistance is not much fun on these designs. It's possible, but they will in all probability feel far worse to you ythan your steel mountain bike. Like riding through treacle. This means that you will in all probability use some level of power assistance all the time, which in turn leads to -

Cost:

The big e-bikes (well mine anyway) go through ordinary consumables at a far greater rate than a normal bike. Think chains (needs two at a time when replacing) brake blocks/pads/discs, in my case the front pads are shot in no time at all brake/gear cables need to be for a tandem (at a greater cost) etc etc.

The biggest cost by far however is batteries. Batteries which get the sort of use that you are indicating will probably not last two years. They may do of course, but the range would be reducing significantly towards the end. If the end of the two year period was during cold weather the range shortening could be so significant, you might not actually make it. To be certain of getting the range required you would need two 14ah batteries. These currently cost over £500 each. Over a grand every two years? You could of course just buy one and recharge at work, but with two daily charges, it wouldn't take long for it's performance to fade. I reckon around a year if your lucky? That would be 480 charge cycles assuming 4 wks leave and no weekend use. In my experience these batteries start to decline around the 200 cycle mark? Remember also that the batteries take around 5 hrs to charge.

Therefore, I would urge you to try a Cytronex. Unfortunately Mark does not (as far as I know) offer the sort of test ride you need, however I do think that the Tonxgin system would suit you well, as it is primarily aimed at fitter cyclists who want a hand up the hills.

The bikes ride like normal bikes without the assistance, the battery and motor wheel are easily swapped out to give you a normal bike if required and the maintenance is no higher than an ordinary bike.

The Cytronex system uses nimh rather than lithium batteries. The batteries are around £200, will give you 20 miles on a charge and can be recharged in 90 minutes. Nimh doesn't suffer the same degradation as the lithium types, and I believe it is possible that you would get 18mths to 2yrs out of one, although other forum members would be able to advise better on this.

Anyway - just my opinion. I know that longer ranges than I have assumed have been quoted for the Wisper bikes, but on a commute I reckon if the power is there, you will in all probability use it!

Cheers

Nick

 

[Patrick]

Added to that I`d be looking at Ortleib panniers

Hello Bob

I was in a similar situation to you but at half scale (a 10 mile each way hilly commute and a budget of £1000). Being able to pedal uphill at 10mph has made bike commuting everyday practical.

I can't add anything to the bike advice given so far, but I would say that bikebins are worth checking out as a potential pannier.

Bicycle Panniers / Bike Bags

They're hard plastic waterproof panniers. The stiff design does reduce the amount of stuff you can get in them when compared to similar sized soft panniers, but they are easy to use and crush proof. I got one mainly so I could get an ironed shirt into work without creasing it, but it's great for any small loads that you want to keep safe and dry (I use it alongside an old fabric pannier for my bulky waterproofs and bike lock).

Patrick

 

[Bob_about]

Thanks to Dynamic Position and The Mutiny for the comments

I must admit having looked further at bike weights and read comments about how hard riding an e-bike with power off can be I was beginning to wonder if this was really a good set of options.

Just at the right moment you have nudged my curiosity in the direction of the Cytronex system - potentially an e-bike I can happily ride without assistance and only use the power when I want a kick up the hills. Think I will have to try this out as well before making a final choice.

The battery degradation issues raised above are a concern - is my proposal to commute 20 miles each way that unusual an idea? If anyone else is regularly using an e-bike to cover 200 miles a week, week after week I`d be interested to hear how their batteries have feared.

Still learning lots just from searching this forum

Thanks again for the replies

Bob_about

 

[GT3]

Bob, the cycle to work scheme has not been mentioned so far, makes the initial puchase much less painful if your employer will subscribe.

I am finding the costs of 'consumables' to be greater than anticipated. £90 two weeks ago (2 x Schwalbe M+, tubes, gas inflator, patches) and £30 last week, when I hit a kerb at speed and bent the front rim.

I cover 160 miles a week, charging both ends is necessary, but I am using SLAs, so not much help on that front!

 

[NRG]

Interesting thread, thankfully I don't have to depend on a bike to commute 40miles but if I had to here's what I think I would do...

Please feel free to shoot the idea down in flames but how about this...I would not spend 2K+ on a single bike, if 2K is the sort of budget being considered I would buy two bikes say a prime bike like the Wisper and a back up bike like the Alien...although the issue with this is you have two different batteries and two different bikes with different fixtures and fittings....so how about two identical lower cost E-Bikes with the ability to interchange parts and batteries that come in at around £1200-£1400 the pair and with the difference bring both of them up to a better and more reliable spec.

With two bikes you will always have a bike to hand if there is an issue with one and one of the batteries can be kept (and charged) at work, simply rotate the battery each day. This will extend battery life and push out replacement cost...of course when the time comes you will have the expense of two batteries to replace instead of one. With a commercial bike I would go with two batteries whatever one you decide to go with...

The only other alternative is to go DIY, buy a decent touring bike, an e-bike kit, and build your own battery...you then have the flexibility of making the battery as large as you like (40miles would not be a problem ) and battery replacement costs would be a lot less than any commercial offering. Just my 2p worth of thoughts.

 

[Mussels]

The battery degradation issues raised above are a concern - is my proposal to commute 20 miles each way that unusual an idea? If anyone else is regularly using an e-bike to cover 200 miles a week, week after week I`d be interested to hear how their batteries have feared.

I do nearly 200 miles a week (weekend working tops it up) and my battery is about 18 months old, so far it is showing no signs of degrading. I charge it at home and work as batteries last longer with shallow charging cycles rather than being run flat.

Interesting thread, thankfully I don't have to depend on a bike to commute 40miles but if I had to here's what I think I would do...

Please feel free to shoot the idea down in flames but how about this...I would not spend 2K+ on a single bike, if 2K is the sort of budget being considered I would buy two bikes say a prime bike like the Wisper and a back up bike like the Alien...although the issue with this is you have two different batteries and two different bikes with different fixtures and fittings....so how about two identical lower cost E-Bikes with the ability to interchange parts and batteries that come in at around £1200-£1400 the pair and with the difference bring both of them up to a better and more reliable spec.

With two bikes you will always have a bike to hand if there is an issue with one and one of the batteries can be kept (and charged) at work, simply rotate the battery each day. This will extend battery life and push out replacement cost...of course when the time comes you will have the expense of two batteries to replace instead of one. With a commercial bike I would go with two batteries whatever one you decide to go with...

The only other alternative is to go DIY, buy a decent touring bike, an e-bike kit, and build your own battery...you then have the flexibility of making the battery as large as you like (40miles would not be a problem ) and battery replacement costs would be a lot less than any commercial offering. Just my 2p worth of thoughts.

I don't see the point myself, I've had plenty of problems but not enough to make buying a second electric bike worthwhile (I have a normal backup bike). The second bike would just sit there whilst the battery slowly degraded.
Two cheaper bikes may be no good if they don't ride as well as an expensive one. I know a guy with a £600 electric bike and he is uninspired by it, he wants to get more use out of it but doesn't like riding it. He is a two wheel addict with some unusual rides so it's not because he can't be bothered.
40 miles a day is a lot and I'd hate to do it on a cheaper bike.

 

[NRG]

That's why I mentioned about bringing it up to a better spec. Wouldn't take much, tyres, brakes etc and the second battery wouldn't go to waste as it would be rotated with the other....anyhow it was just a thought...

 

[Bob_about]

Bob, the cycle to work scheme has not been mentioned so far, makes the initial puchase much less painful if your employer will subscribe.!

My employer is about to subscribe, but I dont think it will be any good for me. There is a cap for bike and equipment at £1000 and I anticipate spending more than that. The scheme runs on the basis of 12 lease payments which would be based on the purchase price, less the tax & NI - so yes a saving, but at the end of this the bike still belongs to the employer, not me. There would then be a valuation to reflect true market value of the bike and I could purchase the bike for that cost. With an e-bike it is likely the market value after 12 months, plus the 12 lease payments would end up greater than the original purchase price! I think some employers let the bike go for a final 13th payment the same as the previous 12 payments, were this to be the case, yes it could work, but our guys seem fixed on the "fair market price" element.

I cover 160 miles a week, charging both ends is necessary, but I am using SLAs, so not much help on that front!

Sorry - dont know what an SLA is in this case so dont kmnow if I need to get one ?!

Thanks for the comments - and ref consumables I know all about big surprises there believe me, I have driven some interesting vehicles over the years which have swallowed thousands!!

All the best for the break

Bob_about

 

[Bob_about]

I do nearly 200 miles a week (weekend working tops it up) and my battery is about 18 months old, so far it is showing no signs of degrading. I charge it at home and work as batteries last longer with shallow charging cycles rather than being run flat..

Thanks for that - good to hear - I have secured permission to charge up at work, so could be looking at two shallow charges per day.

You say there has been no degradation, how do you know? Is there a relaible way to test? I only ask based on the premise that e-bikes are effectively hybrids of muscle power and elec and as time goes on your muscles will get stronger. So it could be the case that as the battery declines, your legs get better, and the jorney times remain the same?!

Just a thought - if there is a way to reliably tell by how much a battery has dropped off it would be good to know

Cheers and thanks again

Bob_about

 

[Bob_about]

Thanks for the idea NRG, but probably wont go this way

I will always have back-up alternatives available to get to work which is a luxury I know. I also feel strongly that you tend to get what you pay for and so am prepared to pay the cash to get a quality product whichever way I decide to go.

I also recall having kept one more car than we needed for a while on the same premise - that didnt work and more money went out of the bank! (although with my boy just turning 17 it would now be handy to have a "spare" car!)

The DIY route really is not going to work for me, but I have great respect for those who can sort these things out.

Thanks for your ideas

Bob_about

Interesting thread, thankfully I don't have to depend on a bike to commute 40miles but if I had to here's what I think I would do...

Please feel free to shoot the idea down in flames but how about this...I would not spend 2K+ on a single bike, if 2K is the sort of budget being considered I would buy two bikes say a prime bike like the Wisper and a back up bike like the Alien...although the issue with this is you have two different batteries and two different bikes with different fixtures and fittings....so how about two identical lower cost E-Bikes with the ability to interchange parts and batteries that come in at around £1200-£1400 the pair and with the difference bring both of them up to a better and more reliable spec.

With two bikes you will always have a bike to hand if there is an issue with one and one of the batteries can be kept (and charged) at work, simply rotate the battery each day. This will extend battery life and push out replacement cost...of course when the time comes you will have the expense of two batteries to replace instead of one. With a commercial bike I would go with two batteries whatever one you decide to go with...

The only other alternative is to go DIY, buy a decent touring bike, an e-bike kit, and build your own battery...you then have the flexibility of making the battery as large as you like (40miles would not be a problem ) and battery replacement costs would be a lot less than any commercial offering. Just my 2p worth of thoughts.

 

[eddieo]

I think the work around for "cycle to work" is to pay for a battery yourself, and get retailer to invoice bike for £1000. I am sure others who have done this will explain.......

 

[NRG]

No problem Bob, if you have alternative transport options then two bikes are indeed a waste! ...as regard to batteries they all degrade, it comes down to how many cycles they will last given the usage pattern...loads of good reading here:

How to prolong lithium-based batteries

 

[Mussels]

You say there has been no degradation, how do you know? Is there a relaible way to test? I only ask based on the premise that e-bikes are effectively hybrids of muscle power and elec and as time goes on your muscles will get stronger. So it could be the case that as the battery declines, your legs get better, and the jorney times remain the same?!

Just a thought - if there is a way to reliably tell by how much a battery has dropped off it would be good to know

I don't know for sure but when I first got it I could just get to work and back on one charge, recently I've forgotten to charge the battery at work and still been able to get home without loads of pedaling.
There's no noticable drop in power as the battery is used, it pretty much provides full assistance until it cuts out.

 

[Dynamic Position]

Thanks for the idea NRG, but probably wont go this way

I will always have back-up alternatives available to get to work which is a luxury I know. I also feel strongly that you tend to get what you pay for and so am prepared to pay the cash to get a quality product whichever way I decide to go.

I also recall having kept one more car than we needed for a while on the same premise - that didnt work and more money went out of the bank! (although with my boy just turning 17 it would now be handy to have a "spare" car!)

The DIY route really is not going to work for me, but I have great respect for those who can sort these things out.

Thanks for your ideas

Bob_about

My e-bike acts as a back-up to the car. I'm in a similar position with my son also turning 17 next year. When you factor this into the scheme of things the cost of an e-bike is a fraction of the cost of the increase in car insurance premiums! What happens when the kids pass their driving test? At least with a decent e-bike you can still commute to work. I'm preparing for events now, when I go for a cycle run with the kids I make sure that they always beat me when racing.
I would like to experiment with e-bike kits, especially with the Cytronex system. Perhaps this is something I might do as a project with my son?

 

[bode]

Sorry - dont know what an SLA is in this case so dont kmnow if I need to get one ?!

No-one has answered this, so: SLA = sealed lead acid, like a car battery really.

 

[Pedalo]

My employer is about to subscribe, but I dont think it will be any good for me. There is a cap for bike and equipment at £1000 and I anticipate spending more than that. The scheme runs on the basis of 12 lease payments which would be based on the purchase price, less the tax & NI - so yes a saving, but at the end of this the bike still belongs to the employer, not me. There would then be a valuation to reflect true market value of the bike and I could purchase the bike for that cost. With an e-bike it is likely the market value after 12 months, plus the 12 lease payments would end up greater than the original purchase price! I think some employers let the bike go for a final 13th payment the same as the previous 12 payments, were this to be the case, yes it could work, but our guys seem fixed on the "fair market price" element.
Bob_about

When I first read this I thought What a stingy lot! - and I couldn't imagine anyone subscribing under those terms...

However I think it's the case that your employer isn't allowed to tell you what the fair market value will be up front.

If you have a look here:

Tax free bikes for work through the Government's Green Transport Initiative - Cyclescheme, provider of Cycle to Work schemes for UK employers

It says:
Most employers opt to sell you the bike and accessories, and you will pay the fair market value; this is the amount that a buyer would pay to a seller to purchase the bike and equipment. Each bike is assessed separately, but in our experience the market shows values to be around 5% of the original voucher value plus VAT. The fair market value cannot be stated before or during the scheme as this could be considered a benefit in kind as hire-purchase does not warrant any tax-relief.

 

[Bob_about]

When I first read this I thought What a stingy lot! - and I couldn't imagine anyone subscribing under those terms...

However I think it's the case that your employer isn't allowed to tell you what the fair market value will be up front.

Agreed - what they are proposing is to state how they will asses "fair market value" and have decided that comparisons with similar bikes sold on e-bay or internet sites will be used as a guide.

From my own reseearch on this I have seen that 12 month old e-bikes go for a good bit more than 5% of their original cost

(if I am wrong and anyone wants to sell me a 12 month old Wisper 905se for £75 please get in touch!)

This is where I feel there is a risk that 12 months lease costs plus the fair market value would exceede the full origonal price therefore making the scheme pointless for an e-bike

As stated, negotiation into fair price cannot be undertaken at the point the agreement is set, so you would have no option but to let it run for 12 months and hope for a reasonable settlement fee. If its not forthcoming, then I could just leave the bike in the ownership of my employer and walk away, but that leaves me several hundred quid down and no bike!

Once again I think its a good plan from the government with the right intentions, but not properly thought through and relies on get rounds and bending the rules to make it work. It would be far simpler if they just said e-bikes used for commuting do not need to pay VAT and attract a £300 subsidy after 6 months regular use (or some such)!

All the best

Bob_about