My Ebike

wurly

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2008
501
9
Yeovil, Somerset
Sorry mkc1... we seem to have rather hijacked your thread to talk about batteries. Hopefully you're finding it interesting anyway :)
Absolutely!!
No i don't mind at all. This is all very interesting. I have plunged myself into this hobby knowing very little. Hence my 'give it a try' battery pack.
I tested each battery only to see if it would reach the same comparatable voltage as the others (1.38V if i can remember) although i didn't have the facilities to measure how many Amp/hours charge they absorbed or if in fact i may have any weak cells. Four out of my pack of thirty were at around 0.6v and the others were around 1V when i recieved them. I purposely charged these separately. All of cells gave readings of 1.38V after charging.
I guess i could measure each cell after the pack has been charged to see if there are any showing slight voltage differences? This would be a fair indication of problem cells?
 

wurly

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2008
501
9
Yeovil, Somerset
Looking at your graph. Would the amount of energy absorbed have peaked at 10760mAh not 11417mAh? the point where voltage no longer increases and energy turns to heat? You say you will give the batteries another quick boost before you use them. Why would that be necessary? is heat the only reason why they will no longer absorb charge. I say this because i believe i managed to get more energy into my pack by recharging the next day after very little use of my pack.
 

Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
2
Warlingham, Surrey
Absolutely!!
I guess i could measure each cell after the pack has been charged to see if there are any showing slight voltage differences? This would be a fair indication of problem cells?
It is better to test the cells when the pack has been drained. The differences between the cells are far easier to detect. The cells ability to deliver energy drops off very rapidly below 1.0v. If you discharge your pack to 33 volts (1.1 volts per cell) you will most likely find that you have a bunch of cells at 1.18v and a bunch at 0.95v or less. Pull out the weaklings and test them individually to determine their capacity.. Replace if necessary. If all your cells are amazingly at 1.1v, then you already have a perfectly matched pack.

To condition the cells for use in the pack, ideally you should drain them all to 0.9v and then give them a 'formation' charge of C/10 for 14 hours to ensure they're all in-sync with each other and charged to the same level.

It is probably worth mentioning that although NiMH cells suffer no damage from being discharged to 0V, they do get damaged if a negative voltage is applied. For cells inside a pack, this negative voltage will occur if one cell runs out of charge prematurely - The other cells continue to push their energy through it creating a reverse potential. For this reason, I would recommend that once you have discharged the pack to below 36v, you switch to a low discharge rate (C/10) to finish off the weeding-out exercise.

I have read elsewhere that large NiMH packs have a tendency to fail because the characteristics of the individual cells within them change as the packs age, so even though your might start with perfectly matched cells, after 6 months you'll have a weakling in the mix. To this end, I have been wondering why nobody ever seems to use a Li-Ion style charge-balancing/cell-protection system with NiMh packs. There must be a good reason for this, but I haven't found it yet.
 
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Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
2
Warlingham, Surrey
Looking at your graph. Would the amount of energy absorbed have peaked at 10760mAh not 11417mAh? the point where voltage no longer increases and energy turns to heat? You say you will give the batteries another quick boost before you use them. Why would that be necessary? is heat the only reason why they will no longer absorb charge. I say this because i believe i managed to get more energy into my pack by recharging the next day after very little use of my pack.
The rate of energy absorption peaked at 10760mAh, but more energy continues to be absorbed after that.. just at a slightly slower rate. The NiMH Cell will continue to soak up energy, turning progressively more and more of it into heat right up until it explodes.

NiMH batteries as notorious for having a very high self-discharge rate of around 30% per month, however, the 10% of that discharge happens within the first 24 hours. For best performance, you want to use NiMH cells straight off the charger whilst they're still warm. This is the reason for the top-up charge.

Here's the graph for my top-up charge today. The charger terminated the charge based on delta-v peak this time after putting another 1.3Ah into the pack. You can see the red line most decidedly drops down after it peaks at around 48 mins.

 

wurly

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2008
501
9
Yeovil, Somerset
Well, i managed to try out the bike today on a fairly hilly circuit. A total of 17.1 miles a bit less than i wanted (sunday roast was waiting for me). I averaged 10mph including a few stops. The total ascent/descent was 1097ft. I used the motor on all the inclines and some of the flat parts when heading into a headwind. Not the easiest or hardest of routes for an ebike but similar to most of the rides i intend to take this year. Battery pack and motor did very well and even had enough power to get me home on the final part of the journey. I had a few controller cutouts when Volt sag went below 30V on the last big hill of the ride. I just had to put more effort and find the 'sweet point' on the throttle and all was fine again.
On that point i am wondering if it's possible to bump up the voltage somehow to avoid controller cutout using semi conductors? or maybe carry a booster pack with me?
Here a graph of the ride. So far so good.....and i'm sure there is loads more energy left in the batteries....looking good for a longer ride next time.
Mel

 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
To this end, I have been wondering why nobody ever seems to use a Li-Ion style charge-balancing/cell-protection system with NiMh packs. There must be a good reason for this, but I haven't found it yet.
I think the answer there is that there's a simpler way. As you say, when they are full the NiMH cells turn excess input charge into heat, and if the rate is low enough the heat generated is manageable. That is exploited during the trickle charge phase to bring all the cells up to full charge. The important thing is to detect the start of this process and reduce the charge current to the safe level.

On the other hand, it makes the charger more complicated. Essentially with NiMH the intelligence goes in the charger. With Lithium the intelligence goes in the battery and a dumb charger can be used.

Nick