New battery already

[aroncox]

It appears after 18 months of commuting (and quite a few of those the bike wasn't working so make it 14 or 15 months) I already need a new battery. I have an eZee Torq with a Lithium battery, and a new one costs £250. I am seriously tempted to scrap the bike and buy an old-fashioned pedal one. If I have to spend £250 every 18 months or less, and also put up with the hassle of waiting for it not to work, then waiting for a new battery etc then is this e-bike thing is worth it?

Anyone else have this kind of problem? If not, then what have I been doing wrong? Is this normal?

By the way, I cycle about 10 miles each way, no so much pedalling in the morning, more on the way home, I charge it when i get to the office, and when I get home in the evening.

 

[flecc]

In my tough hilly area I was having them cutting out at six months and in one case failed at that. A second one bought at the same time lasted nine months, a third is going ok for solo riding on the Q bike but not the Torq at 10 months but whether it will get through the winter is another matter.

I mainly use NiMh now, and have previously enjoyed over four year lives with this type on e-bikes.

So my recommendation is, don't spend £250 on a lithium battery, instead buy the NiMh battery and charger for the same money, and enjoy a minimum of twice the life, and probably a lot longer. The only difference you'll notice is that the battery is a bit heavier, you'll lose about half a mile per hour, and the range is about 10% shorter since they are 9 Ah instead of 10.

However, the loss of range is only about 12% a year instead of up to 35% with lithium, so the range difference cancels within a few months and wouldn't affect your journey anyway.
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[allotmenteer]

Hear, hear.

I still have a 24V li-ion but don't use it for biking. I am looking to use it to power my home-made bike lights. I just need a 24V (well 28.4V) to 12V step down convertor thing and I'll be in business. At the moment I use a 12V SLA for testing purposes.

I think we need a dedicated section on user's experiences with battery types where people can see at a glance how each battery type is rated for ebike use.

 

[aroncox]

I like the idea of a section for battery experiences, as that really is an expensive part of the bike's upkeep. It sounds like I made a mistake buying the Lithium battery, and perhaps a section like that would have helped me to make an informed decision.

Hear, hear.

I still have a 24V li-ion but don't use it for biking. I am looking to use it to power my home-made bike lights. I just need a 24V (well 28.4V) to 12V step down convertor thing and I'll be in business. At the moment I use a 12V SLA for testing purposes.

I think we need a dedicated section on user's experiences with battery types where people can see at a glance how each battery type is rated for ebike use.

 

[HarryB]

I think you have done really well to last 18 months with that sort of mileage a day. I do a 20 mile round trip 4 or 5 days a week and my battery (new in Feb 2007) is pretty clapped out already. I am suffering increasing cut outs on inclines (I would struggle to call them hills) and like you, wondering if going back to a standard bicycle would make more sense. I agree with Flecc about going down the NiMH route - although 50 cycles are out of stock at the moment (as is usual).

I wonder how many of us are out there who feel they have been "had" for spending an extra £100 pounds for the lithium Torq over the NiMH version?

 

[flecc]

I think the message about the failings of lithium has been very clear for a long time.

In the earliest days of this forum nearly a year ago I upset Ken Ching of eZeebike so much with my insistence on the failings of the lithium battery in one long running thread that he's never been in here since, so my warnings could hardly have been more forceful. I've also upset 50cycles repeatedly on this subject, causing them to protest on a number of occasions, and more recently I upset Wisper who went to the lengths of introducing me to a battery expert of theirs.

I've also warned previously about the failures on my own batteries as they've happened, the first warning on that last December, and the following paragraph has been on my Torq website since 6th October 2006:

"To summarise, we are back to how risk averse you are, if you don't mind some risk and the other choice factors I've mentioned are favourable, by all means buy the Li-ion, but otherwise play safe by choosing the well established NiMh."

So even before I had personal experience, I was clearly warning of the real risk factor in choosing lithium.

A to B magazine have reported months ago on the huge capacity loss of the first eZee li-ion to hit the road after almost a year's experience with it, and many others in this forum, and particularly Ian, have said how they won't use Lithium again.

Therefore I don't think we need a separate section, since if the frequent loud and clear warnings in here and elsewhere are ignored, I don't think any notice would be taken of them in another section. The other battery types, NiMh and SLA don't have these sort of problems so no section is needed for those, the Battery FAQ section covering their needs.

Apart from anything else, the lithium batteries that are now failing were newly introduced when bought, so there could not have been a warning section at that time without any user experience. We are soon to start the same situation again with LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron), no-one knowing anything about them.
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[aroncox]

I (rather stupidly I guess) bought the Lithium battery *because* it cost £100 more, assuming it was better. I suppose it is in some respects, but I think battery life is quite an important factor in these cases especially when a new battery is £250.

I was thinking of trying a NiMH battery next as it would cost the same even with a charger, but I guess I can't do that if they're out of stock. Did you get any indication of when they might get some stock in?

Either way my wife is not going to be happy, as I was only able to get her agreement to buy the bike by calculating it would save me money over a couple of years. I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I think you have done really well to last 18 months with that sort of mileage a day. I do a 20 mile round trip 4 or 5 days a week and my battery (new in Feb 2007) is pretty clapped out already. I am suffering increasing cut outs on inclines (I would struggle to call them hills) and like you, wondering if going back to a standard bicycle would make more sense. I agree with Flecc about going down the NiMH route - although 50 cycles are out of stock at the moment (as is usual).

I wonder how many of us are out there who feel they have been "had" for spending an extra £100 pounds for the lithium Torq over the NiMH version?

 

[HarryB]

No I haven't asked - the last lot went in under a week so when they come in you will have to be quick - it does suggest some demand for the NiMH batteries. Maybe 50 cycles would like to give us an idea of when the next lot is due and just maybe they could order more this time? The website suggests pre-ordering but I don't like the idea of 50 cycles keeping my £250 for a couple of months while the order comes in (good for their cash flow)!

 

[flecc]

They do keep coming in in small batches, but go out quick of course.

I think we just have to keep asking for NiMh and digging in our heels against Lithium until the obvious message is understood, i.e. we don't want present technology lithium batteries, and we don't want the manufacturers hype about the huge currents they deliver (not). Hype doesn't get us up hills or make batteries last longer.
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[allotmenteer]

I suggested the section on user experiences with their batteries so that it would jump out at visitors to the site without the need to trawl through posts to find them. Having said that you wouldn't have to look hard to find opinions on the batteries.

My main concern is to clearly get accross the message to prospective new ebikers that the lithium option is very rarely the way to go.

What about a scrolling banner on the front page saying 'Lithium batteries are rubbish!'

 

[jac]

maybe if you work out bus fare over 14 months you could persuade your wife it is worth the cost

 

[coops]

To back up what flecc says about the warnings being there for a long time, when I went to 50cycles in March this year I had not specifically intended to buy an Ezee bike, let alone a Torq, but when I did I knew to request a NiMH battery even though my area is not hilly, partly to save around 10% on purchase price but also as a 'risk averse' option - I'd already experienced premature ageing on low powered devices with Lithium polymer batteries (batteries replaced after only a year or so) and didn't wish to risk having to fork out for a replacement bike battery equally soon, and I knew that NiMH would see me good for a few years at least.

Ken and 50cycles should be pleased though, if they truly want satisfied customers, because they have one - due to flecc's timely advice (and I feel for those who had to find out the hard way about these batteries).

Still, a replacement with NiMH (when available) is the simple & effective mid- to long-term solution, and still much less than replacing the bike. Think of it as a major upgrade or cost it mentally as you would a major overhaul for a vehicle - after all, the running & maintainance costs for ebikes otherwise are very low .

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

What about a scrolling banner on the front page saying 'Lithium batteries are rubbish!'

Of course you've said that in jest, but as ever, the problem is that ultimately the site will have to depend on advertisers, so some moderation is necessary. I've pushed this issue as hard as I dared while trying to avoid causing potential advertisers to boycott the site. Wisper have come very close to doing that recently as a result of the types of comment.
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[HarryB]

To back up what flecc says about the warnings being there for a long time, when I went to 50cycles in March this year I had not specifically intended to buy an Ezee bike, let alone a Torq, but when I did I knew to request a NiMH battery even though my area is not hilly, partly to save around 10% on purchase price but also as a 'risk averse' option - I'd already experienced premature ageing on low powered devices with Lithium polymer batteries (batteries replaced after only a year or so) and didn't wish to risk having to fork out for a replacement bike battery equally soon, and I knew that NiMH would see me good for a few years at least.

Ken and 50cycles should be pleased though, if they truly want satisfied customers, because they have one - due to flecc's timely advice (and I feel for those who had to find out the hard way about these batteries).

Still, a replacement with NiMH (when available) is the simple & effective mid- to long-term solution, and still much less than replacing the bike. Think of it as a major upgrade or cost it mentally as you would a major overhaul for a vehicle - after all, the running & maintainance costs for ebikes otherwise are very low .

Stuart.

The problem is that people like me and aroncox bought their bikes before we knew the truth about lithium. Even Flecc bought in to the lithium idea at the time and we have all been disappointed by the performance (although to be fair aroncox has done amazingly well to get 18 months use). I also simpathise about being off road - my Torq has had its problems mainly to do with the battery

I don't think anybody can argue the economics of using an electric bike (or push bike) to commute into somewhere like London. To come 10 miles into London will cost £100-£120 a month on the tube so the battery more than pays for itself in a few months (driving in to London is not a realistic option at £8 a day)

 

[flecc]

Even Flecc bought in to the lithium idea at the time and we have all been disappointed by the performance

I did know of the potential for problems when I bought two of them, hence my warnings, but as members know from my experimental work on batteries etc, I'm prepared to spend money to try things out.

I'll be one of the first into Lithium Iron for the same reason, my engineer's curiosity needing to be satisfied always.
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[HarryB]

I'll be one of the first into Lithium Iron for the same reason, my engineer's curiosity needing to be satisfied always.
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I am afraid I will be following you even if it is a risk. I was hoping that my lithium would last until they came out but some hope. Looks like I will be trying out NiMH first.

 

[Canadian Cadence]

I have been following the lithium ion debate for some time since I have one. Is there a problem with the brand (type) of battery used by Ezee?
I have not found any decrease in power output or duration when cycling and have just run a diagnostic on the battery(41.2 V) . These are results that are echoed by NICK who also has the 350w system with over 2000 miles and about 18 months.
With the price of these batteries ...especially the Bionx lithiums you can see why I am anxious.....but still no degradation noted???

 

[flecc]

The BionX battery is a very high quality one Canadian Cadence, hence it's scary price, and it's coupled with some saving factors.

The motor's peak output is moderate rather than very high, and the BionX software manages the low speed power delivery very strictly, preventing very high current drain. Of course that does limit the very low speed torque and power as you know but it protects the battery well.

The eZee motors have high peak power and very high low speed torque so are capable of very high battery drains. The benefit is in powerful hill climbing and/or speed performance, plus very good towing ability on the bikes with suitable motor gearing. But of course the mainstream production battery can get a rough life, particularly in difficult territory. This would be true of any high powered bike in the same circumstances of course, not just the eZee ones, and others have experienced similar cut-outs.
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[Ian]

7600 miles on a battery of any chemistry is pretty good in my book, 3.2 p per mile takes some beating.

 

[aroncox]

Well that goes to show how often it wasn't working as I didn't get anywhere near that many miles. I'm currently showing 1500 or so, but the milometer thingy broke a while ago so that's only the mileage on the new one. I'd guess I've done about 3000 miles on it, which is still quite a distance!

7600 miles on a battery of any chemistry is pretty good in my book, 3.2 p per mile takes some beating.