New Battery 'Fair' Prices

[brucehawsker]

Is the market efficient in Wh? Or, in other words, do you pay the same per Wh for a spare battery irrespective of manufacture.

My gut feel is the 24V 10Ah Panasomic costs £400 (inc VAT) to replace for e.g. a Kalfkoff, and that the Wisper 36V 10Ah costs about £400 (inc VAT). Yet the former battery has only 2/3 the Whs. Thus in one case you are paying £1.66 per WH, and in the second £1.11 (inc VAT) per Wh.

I feel, based on wholesale prices, a fair retail price should be sub £1.00 (inc. VAT) per Wh. Thus for a 36V 10Ah the 'fair' market price should be sub £360 (inc VAT). Wisper is close to that (if market rumours are right) but the Panansonics are wayyyyyyy overpriced. Is there something fundamentally different in the technologies between the two battery types that I am missing.

Any comments, especially from manufactureres, dealers, suppliers?

Thank you.

Bruce {I used to be an economist}

 

[flecc]

The Panasonic battery has two major differences.

One is that it is unique in having an automatic sleep mode, shutting down it's BMS after about two weeks idle. The BMS is the only source of storage discharge, and on normal batteries that low discharge can destroy a battery if its not recharged at least every couple of months when out of use. The Panasonic battery used on their motor units cannot suffer that fate.

The other major difference is the facility to check the remaining capacity on it's meter throughout the battery's life, that's the capacity, not the charge content which it also measures of course. It's also possible to restore lost capacity in the earlier stages of life by using it's conditioning cycle, another unique feature.

Finally, there are users now just reaching three years with the 10 Ah battery and still going strong. Apart from the horrifically expensive 10 Ah BionX battery (close to £4 per Wh), I don't know of any other lithium-ion batteries doing this*, most have had it by two years.

Incidentally, some suppliers charge about 25% more for the Panasonic battery, BikeTec (Flyer) for example.

*The newer LiFePO4 technology e-bike batteries should enable it but none are that old yet.
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[NRG]

Also to add to Flecc's post looking just at the cost /Wh is too simplistic as the Panasonic system in conjunction with its smaller Wh battery will actually go further IE: the system as a whole is more efficient than a typical 250w hub power bike with a 10Ah, so you should maybe calculate the cost per mile. Although I feel batteries are overpriced in general the new Panasonic ones, given the range possible, are probably the best value available from any manufacturer.

 

[flecc]

Backing NRG's point, I recently posted on this very subject that I would be lucky to scrape to 35 miles on the lower price model mentioned but can exceed 50 miles on a Panasonic set in the same circumstances. A few seconds on a calculator shows that they are equal on that basis.

Adding the longer known life of the battery to date can actually give the cost advantage to the Panasonic.
.

 

[brucehawsker]

Does this not kind of miss the point?. The cells in the batteries are largely the same. Whether the panasonic crank or is not more effieicent (I believe it sucks the rider in to more pedalling - that is its main secret) is not the point. Both Wisper and Panasonic use same cells so price per Wh should be the same - or am I being stoopid (again )

 

[brucehawsker]

What ARE the prices for 36V10Ah in the marketplace then? And how much for the Panasonic 26V10Ah? Both as replacements.....

 

[jbond]

I think you will find the Kalkhoff Batteries are the best priced batteries on the market. We have price these very keenly to offer our customers the best service at the best prices.

So can I compare like with like? What's the cost of a 36V-12AHr LiFePo Kalkhoff battery? Or is that not an option? How about a 36V-15AHr one like that described here. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/7069-cheap-lipo4-china.html for £185

 

[NRG]

The Panasonic batteries are 26v but that is of no importance other than calculating Wh, its how the available capacity is used by the motor propulsion system that's important. Given the examples above the 18Ah Kalkhoff battery uses 4.68Wh / mile and the Wisper (being generous at 50miles) 10Wh / mile.

 

[flecc]

Does this not kind of miss the point?. The cells in the batteries are largely the same. Whether the panasonic crank or is not more effieicent (I believe it sucks the rider in to more pedalling - that is its main secret) is not the point. Both Wisper and Panasonic use same cells so price per Wh should be the same - or am I being stoopid (again )

While the point you make about the systems is valid, what matters to the end user is the value they get, regardless of the way it's achieved

Also I don't accept that the cells are necessarily the same, given the way these batteries are lasting as I've pointed out, and the BMS and metering is clearly different from anyone elses. As I've pointed out elsewhere, the research that produces these improvements is not a charitable function, it's only right that it's costed in.

Ultimately it's Panasonic's business and the agent's businesses we are discussing, and they are entitled to charge whatever they like. Whether to buy or not is the prerogative of the potential customer, there's no lack of choice in the market.

In this connection and unlike many others, the replacement cost of the Panasonic battery is openly displayed on the 50cycles website so there's no attempt at concealment.
.

 

[tillson]

brucehawsker originally questioned the relative cost of batteries in terms of £/Watt hour, not how far the bike will go per Watt hour. As illustrated by flecc, the Wisper and Panasonic systems are about equal on that score.

Returning to the original question, why is the Panasonic system battery 49.6 % more expensive than the Wisper based of £/Watt hour. From what I have read previously, the justification for high replacement battery prices seem to centre around the high cost of quality cell development. I believe that Wisper batteries utilise Panasonic cells (or alternative high quality ones if I am wrong), so why is there such a big differential in cost? Are the prices based around the maximum price that they (the manufacturer) can get away with. £500 getting you a replacement battery for your Wisper or Panasonic system, the cost of cells to the manufacturer being a secondary consideration?

I know that the Panasonic battery has some additional circuitry which shuts the thing down after a period of inactivity, and after a fashion, it will tell you the capacity of the battery. But pro-rata, this additional circuitry cost about £97 per battery. Measuring a battery's capacity and switching off a BMS circuit isn't at the frontier of technology and will have been done before. The components will cost peanuts, so I am having difficulty in seeing where this additional £97 comes from.

In fact, brucehawsker's question and the responses to it, tend to reinforce my suspicion that manufacturer's (not necessarily retailers) are exploiting their own individual monopolies on replacement batteries.

Most of us on here tend to be mature individuals with all the worldly experience that bring with it. We know that these people are in business to make money, and not as some sort of act of benevolence for enthusiasts. There is nothing wrong with that. We know that a monopoly position provides scope for huge profit margins and we know that the temptation to exploit this is irresistible. It's hard enough clenching our teeth and paying when the time comes, but please don't try and justify the prices to us with fairy stories.

On a positive note, the new Kalkhoff battery does seem to be a step in the right direction, especially so if the claims regarding it's life expectancy turn out to be true. In fact, it could turn out to be a bit of a revolution and make it one of the best, if not the best value battery available.

I know that I am beginning to sound like a gramophone record which has got stuck, but is there any word from Kalkhoff regarding warranties on these new batteries? I know that they are claiming nearly double everything from capacity to shelf life to number of charging cycles. It would be nice to know how they intend to underwrite these claims. Not that there is much choice but to buy one.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Bruce

1. Wisper batteries also have a lifecycle of more than 1000 cycles 700 to 80% capacity.
2. The new Wisper 558Wh battery costs £525.00 and we offer a £50.00 rebate on PX of old battery
3. The Kalkhoff battery is 468Wh 90wh less than the Wisper
4. There is a difference between in power on most electric bike high modes, the Wisper high mode is particularly powerful. We have achieved well over 120 miles on the "correct" terrain
5. The chemical combination is certainly different.
6. We too sell 1000's of bikes and batteries all over the world, although I dont see why that matters!

As NRG says the main difference between the bikes is not the battery but the way the power is used.

Some prefer crank style bikes and others hub, my preference is certainly hub otherwise we would be selling bikes with Panasonic crank drives!

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

And of course I could be really mischievous and mention the well understood rule that greater quantity of production brings a lower price.

Therefore a bigger box that contains more Watt-hours is bound to be cheaper per Watt-hour to make and sell than a smaller box with less.
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[tillson]

2. The new Wisper 558Wh battery costs £525.00 and we offer a £50.00 rebate on PX of old battery

I think the new Kalkhoff battery narrows the £/Watt hour gap.

Kalkhoff battery £500/468 = £1.06 p /Watt hour

Wisper battery £525/558 = £0.94 p /Watt hour

A 13% differential, down from nearly 50%.

Because the Panasonic drive system isn't stuck in top gear and uses each of those precious and costly Watt hours more efficiently, I think this new Kalkhoff battery is quite a pricing breakthrough. (All what I have said before regarding prices still standing)

I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :-I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :-I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- ...............

 

[flecc]

I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :-I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :-I just wish we knew more about the warranty :- click :- ...............

Probably the makers do too!

As always, nobody knows with certainty until the passage of time reveals the veracity of the laboratory testing.
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[daniel.weck]

*The newer LiFePO4 technology e-bike batteries should enable it but none are that old yet.
.

Talking of which, lately I am using my 2.6Ah A123 pack more than my 10Ah LifePO4 pack. For that reason my "big pack" has been in storage for the best part of the last 2 months, and actually as we speak I am charging it for maintenance purposes. I normally leave the pack in our dry utility room (cold environment), and I bring the battery in the house (ambient temperature) the day before charging. I can see the 12 LEDs of the Li-Ping BMS lighting-up, so I guess the pack needed a top-up indeed ! On average I guess the cell levels remain at least 80% full, which is good I believe. I shall see how long this 36V beast lasts, and I will do my best to keep each of the 24 prismatic cells alive and well !

As for my little A123 pack (two 6S in series), I am currently charge-balancing each individual 6S 18V sub-pack, for the second time since I bought them. Balancing actually takes ages (after the Constant Voltage, Constant Current stages ...), but I want to make sure it's spot-on before I rely on unbalanced charging for the full 36V pack. These cylindrical cells are very robust so I expect their lifespan to outlive me (especially given my usage pattern)

Cheers, Dan

 

[brucehawsker]

Have reviewed the posts, and in summary:

• Wisper is cheaper per Wh than Kalkhoff by some 12% (£0.94 vs £1.07 per Wh)
• The NRG suggested ranges are a factor of 1.4x more conservative than the manufacturers claims....
• In both cases (NRG or manufacturer), the Wisper consumes 210% the Wh per mile of the Kalkhoff (apparently). Thus (manufacturer numbers): 14Wh/mile (Wisper), 6.7Wh/mile (Kalkhoff)

I really find it hard to believe that the Kalkhoff is so much more efficient than the Wisper. This must mean that Kalkhoff gets more external energy (human pedal power) than the Wisper. Or is energy being created somewhere? Do electric bikes not follow the laws of conservation of energy?

Or am I missing something still??

 

[tillson]

Have reviewed the posts, and in summary:

• Wisper is cheaper per Wh than Kalkhoff by some 12% (£0.94 vs £1.07 per Wh)
• The NRG suggested ranges are a factor of 1.4x more conservative than the manufacturers claims....
• In both cases (NRG or manufacturer), the Wisper consumes 210% the Wh per mile of the Kalkhoff (apparently). Thus (manufacturer numbers): 14Wh/mile (Wisper), 6.7Wh/mile (Kalkhoff)

I really find it hard to believe that the Kalkhoff is so much more efficient than the Wisper. This must mean that Kalkhoff gets more external energy (human pedal power) than the Wisper. Or is energy being created somewhere? Do electric bikes not follow the laws of conservation of energy?

Or am I missing something still??

flecc explains it all very clearly here

 

[brucehawsker]

Yes, thank you I had read flecc's subnission. But my question remains. Is it really the case that the Wh/mile around flecc's area is less than half that for the Kalkhoff compared to the Wisper????

 

[Bandit]

Yes, thank you I had read flecc's subnission. But my question remains. Is it really the case that the Wh/mile around flecc's area is less than half that for the Kalkhoff compared to the Wisper????

Terrain will certainly point up the difference between the relative efficiencies of the two kinds of drive system, and it's difficult to compare the performance of the two fairly, since the Panasonic system requires a rider input that could not be guaranteed on any hub motored bike.

I'm guessing that the reason for price difference between the Panasonic drive batteries and the others has more to do with the battery management system, which must be difficult for a clone manufacturer to emulate. Unfortunately for the consumer, the market is probably too small to justify the large investment necessary. It will be interesting to see what the Bosch system's battery prices are.

 

[rog_london]

It will be interesting to see what the Bosch system's battery prices are.

General rule of business: you charge whatever the market will stand. As has been said before, THIS market is too small and too specialized for any true 'bargains' to be available.

If anything will kill the e-bike market, it will be the replacement cost of a battery. Knowing you have a 'consumable' with a built in clock running from the moment you take delivery whether you use it or not, and may well be half the cost of the original bike, is a sobering thought. Even a Wisper - at the end of 2008 you could buy a 905se Sport for £1200, and if you did, a replacement battery now comes in at over £500 - if you actually need one yet!

Rog.