New technology - solid state batteries

flecc · Jun 14, 2020

Scorpio said:
Lithium Ion Titanate

I can't see a terrestrial application, no-one needs 20,000 plus charge cycles, equal to 55 years at a charge a day.

Our present e-car batteries are proving to last at least ten years with better capacity to size ratio, so enough already.

Could be useful in a deep space exploration satellite, with the ability to transmit for over half a century using intermittent solar charging from distant suns.
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RossG · Jun 14, 2020

flecc said:
I can't see a terrestrial application, no-one needs 20,000 plus charge cycles, equal to 55 years at a charge a day.

Our present e-car batteries are proving to last at least ten years with better capacity to size ratio, so enough already.

Could be useful in a deep space exploration satellite, with the ability to transmit for over half a century using intermittent solar charging from distant suns.
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It had better be a very stable technology to survive a trip to the nearest star flecc, that would take at least 5000 years

flecc · Jun 14, 2020

RossG said:
It had better be a very stable technology to survive a trip to the nearest star flecc, that would take at least 5000 years

With an accelerated departure the speed of the satellite in space is unlimited and it only has to reach some light rather than a star itself. But as you say, highly unlikely.

Alternatively the satellite could have a switch on as destination light is reached, beginning charging and transmission far into the future. I suppose those receiving such future signals from ancient satellites would be classed as archaeologists!
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PP100 · Jun 14, 2020

I almost posted this a while back, wondering if it might be useful for bikes.
Any one for sodium-ion batteries?

Boffins step into the Li-ion's den with sodium-ion battery that's potentially as good as a lithium cousin

Electrolyte breakthrough preserves charge capacity

www.theregister.com

RossG · Jun 14, 2020

There's certainly a lot of work going on ATM in the field of Electrical Storage Systems, one day someone will hit on the big one and we'll be riding our bikes around the world on one charge !

Nealh · Jun 14, 2020

LTO chemistry isn't new but is more expensive, cylindrical and pouch cells are available.

ElectricJoe · Jun 14, 2020

Scorpio said:
Interesting new developments - wonder how long before they are available
for bikes?

The "battery breakthrough de jour" as Elon Musk once said.
There's always something radically new being touted, and there's, so far, always been a catch. Density, or cost or charge cycles or size or safety.

Current (ha ha) lithium batteries are also improving at such a speed that whatever replaces them will be much more of a gradual process, and used in areas where they are needed enough to pay the inevitably higher price, because the economies of scale give the batteries we use today a big edge in low price.
So solid state or whatever is the next great advance, has a moving target to chase. Solid state announcements of 3 or 4 years ago (that never came to fruition) are pretty much what todays latest lithium are doing.

Suppose the new battery could put 3x as much power into the same size of battery we have now. You might say "great I"ll have that" until you learn such a battery would cost £10k if it was available for your bike.
NASA will happily put it in a satellite, we'll carry on with batteries that cost £500 and maybe in 2 or 3 years will still cost £500 but will have 2x todays capacity.
And there's also the "good enough" factor, if you could get say 100 real miles from a battery, would you pay 2x or 3x todays cost for 200 miles, or losing say 1kg with a smaller battery?

So, fingers crossed one of these breakthroughs happens, but dont hold your breath.

PP100 · Jun 15, 2020

And if new battery tech becomes mainstream , how easy/difficult would it likely be to use in connect to use in current ( no pun intended) e-bikes?
Would it potentially just need adapters for the existing cables or likely mean the next ebike you buy might have it.
In other words, how future proof for battery tech are current ebikes or does it depend very much on the model?

flecc · Jun 15, 2020

PP100 said:
And if new battery tech becomes mainstream , how easy/difficult would it likely be to use in connect to use in current ( no pun intended) e-bikes?
Would it potentially just need adapters for the existing cables or likely mean the next ebike you buy might have it.
In other words, how future proof for battery tech are current ebikes or does it depend very much on the model?

So long as we need voltage and current, any battery technology can be used. Which is mainly dependant on capacity per litre volume and/or capacity per kilo weight.

Cars are different, able to cope with larger volumes and weights, so we could see e-cars and e-bikes diversify into different battery technologies in future.
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PP100 · Jun 15, 2020

Ok , but even today, is it true or not , that different batteries are not compatible with every bike as the connecting interface (when on the bike) varies? Or with custom modification, they are? Even if the bike is 5, 10 years old?

sjpt · Jun 15, 2020

PP100 said:
Ok , but even today, is it true or not , that different batteries are not compatible with every bike as the connecting interface (when on the bike) varies? Or with custom modification, they are? Even if the bike is 5, 10 years old?

Very true. Some are not easily compatible because of the way they mount or the sort of cable connectors. Those issues are generally resolvable (with various levels of difficulty).

Some are designed to be incompatible and require special interfaces; Bosch is a common one and several other brands as well. Even those could in theory be recelled with cells of a different technology; but I understand even recelling Bosch with the same technology cells is getting more awkward.

ElectricJoe · Jun 15, 2020

PP100 said:
And if new battery tech becomes mainstream , how easy/difficult would it likely be to use in connect to use in current ( no pun intended) e-bikes?
Would it potentially just need adapters for the existing cables or likely mean the next ebike you buy might have it.
In other words, how future proof for battery tech are current ebikes or does it depend very much on the model?

Great question.
In general, bike vendors want to sell bikes rather than batteries. And if you look at all the bikes there are now, there are so many different sizes and shapes and connections for batteries, that you would need a cottage industry that replaced the cells inside the existing battery module for newer ones since once a particular bike is discontinued if the battery module is specific to that, the bike vendor is unlikely to bring out a replacement battery.
If electric bikes become popular enough then the demand for such service might enable retrofit, in the same way you can get your phone battery replaced if you want.
I dont know how good manufacturers have been so far in supporting discontinued models. You'd hope they would try to stick to same size and shape for their own sake but there's no real concept of a modular battery.
A worrying prospect if you spend a lot on a bike that might be obsoleted by battery unavailability in only, say 4 or 5 years if the manufacturers doest support it or goes bust.
So this is a potential issue regardless of new tech.

soundwave · Jun 16, 2020

bosch will support bikes and parts for 10 years for each model of motor so spare batts motors will be available to buy but at a price!

bosch batts have a hand shake system via software in the bms of the battery it will not even turn on unless it is connected to a bike with a bosch motor.

so the bosch system like some others are software locked so no other batt will work.

jimmy can recell the bosch batts but they must be working and charging as the bms must be kept powerd when you recell the batt.

a dead bms or motor controller will turn in to a door stop as do not sell those parts to anyone like apple

Nealh · Jun 16, 2020

ElectricJoe said:
Great question.
In general, bike vendors want to sell bikes rather than batteries. And if you look at all the bikes there are now, there are so many different sizes and shapes and connections for batteries, that you would need a cottage industry that replaced the cells inside the existing battery module for newer ones since once a particular bike is discontinued if the battery module is specific to that, the bike vendor is unlikely to bring out a replacement battery.
If electric bikes become popular enough then the demand for such service might enable retrofit, in the same way you can get your phone battery replaced if you want.
I dont know how good manufacturers have been so far in supporting discontinued models. You'd hope they would try to stick to same size and shape for their own sake but there's no real concept of a modular battery.
A worrying prospect if you spend a lot on a bike that might be obsoleted by battery unavailability in only, say 4 or 5 years if the manufacturers doest support it or goes bust.
So this is a potential issue regardless of new tech.

Soundwave/SW pointed out nicely weeks ago that vendors in the main are just BOX SELLERS more so I think for mid drive bikes as there is little anyone can do electrically to fault find or physically repair them without diagnosis and swap a part. The tech in bike progress for some OEM makers is akin to cars now, plug it in to find what's wrong.

For hub bikes there is an opening in the market maybe for someone to provide a simple service for minor electrical repairs/service, for hub bike repairs out of warranty with various electrical components fitted to bikes by vendors from various suppliers any major issue is again about getting spares which is nigh on impossible unless you go back to the vendor.

Replacing complete electrical systems isn't to hard but it depends if someone is willing to spend more money for a part kit and for someone to charge for the work. Diagnosis though takes time and not cost effective, so forums like this is for most the best way forward to get advise and to try self repair.

Going back to the battery side of things then for repairs if one isn't conversant in the tech then there is help from the likes of BGA/Ebikebatteries and a couple of other people that have been mentioned in the past.

Woosh · Jun 16, 2020

Scorpio said:
Maybe in another 10 years we will have some standard voltages & connectors (even bosch?)

that may require an official body to set the standard.
Manufacturers change subtly the battery's connectors and other characteristics to achieve differentiation and stop customers messing with their bike's electrics.
I wouldn't want someone slot a 52V battery onto my 48V kit and get me to replace the burnt out components.

flecc · Jun 16, 2020

PP100 said:
Ok , but even today, is it true or not , that different batteries are not compatible with every bike as the connecting interface (when on the bike) varies? Or with custom modification, they are? Even if the bike is 5, 10 years old?

ElectricJoe said:
A worrying prospect if you spend a lot on a bike that might be obsoleted by battery unavailability in only, say 4 or 5 years if the manufacturers doest support it or goes bust.
So this is a potential issue regardless of new tech.

More than a potential issue, it's already been a very real one and will be again many times.

Over ten years back US e-bike company Izip marketed a bike with a curved down tube that contained a custom Panasonic NiMh battery. One year later with some of the batteries failing, the battery was no longer available, Panasonic having discontinued it and Izip unable or unwilling to help. So a thousand pounds worth of scrap or bodge up a rear carrier battery conversion.

There are other somewhat similar cases too, albeit rather older.

I worry about the trend to built-into-the-frame batteries too, I can foresee many of those quickly becoming unavailable, often well before ten years have passed.
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Woosh · Jun 16, 2020

as long as the battery is not software protected, you can always replace the inframe battery with a rear rack battery or a small frog battery mounted to the seat post or a downtube battery.
These batteries don't have any style to worry about, they are just functional.
The semi-inframe battery is a little more difficult to replace when it is no longer made.

New technology - solid state batteries

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