New to forum, advice gratefully received!

[alsmith]

Hi! New to the forum, starting to work my way through- so sorry for repeating questions that are possibly tucked away in there somewhere.
I'm a little over 50 and need to start exercising, recently diagnosed with myalgia (achey limbs/joints and weakness in limbs ) and spondylosis (neck/back pains). I'd like to use an ebike/pedelec for travel to and from work when/if possible- (it's a 20+ mile round trip), but when or if not practicable use it generally for local trips anyway- things like shopping, visiting friends and relatives, and hopefully I'll be enjoying it so much for leisure/exercise trips (there's plenty of nice places in Northumberland!). Plenty of rolling hills, a few fairly steep ones nearby I'm only about 5' 6", lost weight due to medical issues over the last 6 months takes me to (can't find the scales) around 12 stone I think.

So- any recommendations of a suitable e bike for me?
I'd like one of the 3 mode type so when aching (almost all of the time to be honest) and sore can let the bike do the work as needed, intention is mainly assisted though. Perhaps, on a good day no assist- but not guaranteed. I probably would like a range of at least 25 miles, prefer 30 (or greater?). And definately a rack so I can attach panniers/luggage. No backpack to add to my aches and pains!
I had been leaning towards a powacycle model Salisbury, but probably a step through might be a bit more practical- although I can still lift my leg over a crossbar- sometimes twisting my face due to the aches. But still open minded about the bike layout apart from wanting the capability of carring luggage on the bike, not a back pack or similar. After talking to a dealer I've been turned away from the powacycles to some degree (hill climbing ability, possible support issues). I had also kind of made up my mind about getting a Li-Ion battery - after reading this forum I'm now doubting that one too. It's like 2 steps forward then three steps back!
I saw a couple of Izip's at another dealer- they looked ok but it's not a name I've seen before. The newer model doesnt seem to have a lock on the battery- a candidate for theft. They seemed ok on a quick look.
So- do I avoid Li-Ion batteries? What about Lead acid, I know they are heavier- but less expensive. Is the range less too? I understand they survive less charging cycles, and lose capacity over time too, offset against lower cost. NiMH the best option?

Any help, advice - things that will suit/ones to avoid, and any other advice gratefully received- it is needed and will be considered and taken into account.
And if anyone else has any similar medical issues please let me know a little about your experiences. I haven't noticed anything looking at this subject from that angle, hopefully your advice will benefit many more people than just me!
Meanwhile I'm going to continue working through the topics in the forum and continue learning, hopefully the mists will clear.
Thanks all!

 

[coops]

Hi Al and a warm welcome to pedelecs

I can well understand any trepidation regarding ploughing through the threads index I've been there, so hope we can save you some time .

Many of the more recent threads might cover much of your circumstances, and there are some older threads which have mention of ebike use for physio, or to help get around with a physical condition .

burncycle's account (scroll down a few posts) of his recent Agattu & Torq test ride at 50cycles is a good first hand comparison of the differences of the two main types of ebike: the former has only recently been introduced, while the latter has also recently undergone changes which will markedly change the performance of the bike I should think - the Torq is now limited to 15mph and geared lower for hills. The account might also help you in choosing between a pedal-only electric or one with throttle control, which could take the strain if you need a break from pedalling .

I think the concensus is that good quality Li batteries can work well in bikes which have good power management or low power demand, and those used in the Agattu have a proven longevity (in Biketec bikes) & 2 year guarantee, but if some Li batteries are used for a high power demand that can lead to rapid loss of capacity and ability to supply power, and short battery lifetime.

Given your myalgia and spondylosis and hilly terrain, a rough quantification of the maximum steepness you might encounter might help you refine your choices to minimise risk of strain on muscles, or you could just go for one of the best hill-climbers to be future-proof should you want to ride in hillier areas!

Certainly hub motors give more control & flexibility over power assist than pedelecs like the Agattu. Most bikes come with rear racks or can be fitted with them, so no problems there .

Good luck with your quest and ask away if you have any questions which appear not asked elsewhere I hope that helps for now.

Stuart.

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi alsmith, welcome.
Obviously your choice depends on a number of factors and Coops has certainly given you some excellent advice for starters. Mine would be to take your time, read all you can on the forum and A to B magazine, folding bikes, electric bicycles, trailers, sister publication to Miniature Railway magazine , then try as many as you can over as long a distance as possible.
You might have to travel a fair distance to find a dealer, probably your nearest one is Electric Cycles from the Electric Cycle Company in Edinburgh, Scotland or alternatively ask if there are any forum members within a resaonable distance with the bike you are thinking of who would let you take it for a spin.
Budget is another consideration, if money is no object, you could have one bike for a leisure and when you are not in a hurry, like a Panasonic powered bike and a high performing tri modal hub motor bike with throttle assist when you are in a hurry.
But if you want to dip your toe, and try a used bike, there is always eBay where you will regularly find around 80 electric bikes on offer ranging from the good to bad to downright ugly.
Something I have noticed on 'the bay' recently are these Alien TITAN Electric Sports Bicycle Bike e-bike 21 Sp'd on eBay, also, Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 19-Feb-08 16:13:19 GMT) which seem to be selling, are getting good feedback and not too dear. I haven't seen any tests or reports on them though.

In the meantime good luck.

John

 

[flecc]

Hi, welcome to the forum. The Powacycle models are among the least powerful bikes, so I wouldn't recommend them for your particular situation. You really need a bike which can do at least much of the work for you, though I stress that all these e-bikes are electric assist, rather than being electric bikes. Some useful rider input is necessary at times, even on the most powerful ones, and especially on the steeper hills.

It's probably worth investigating the Powabyke models, since they are good hill climbers, though some of them you might find heavy. They are sold through local dealers, and you can locate one on this page.
.

 

[fishingpaul]

Welcome to the forum, i would agree with flecc on trying a powabyke,they can often be obtained second hand at reasonable prices if you want a low budget buy,as for bikes on ebay i would go for a known brand to ensure parts back up.

 

[alsmith]

Thanks for all of the advice.
The mists aren't clear yet. In fact things got more foggy- see below!

First, to add a little to my situation- to be honest I am going to need to sell my flat- I'll struggle with the mortgage (50% pay, until I get finished which may not be far away, now getting incapacity benefit), so I'm willing to spend whatever is needed from that to get something suitable, it will probably be a couple of months away until I can buy- I might not miss our summer week this way! - but at least I get the chance to reach a considered decision (hopefully the right one for me).

As I was driving today I saw a guy on an electric bike so followed and had a chat. He had bought a kit, fitted to a standard bike. This gents bike was a front hub version, lead battery, imported from USA- and he was clearly well satisfied with it. Looks ok and similar are on ebay.
There seem to be a few different drive types for the kits like chain driven either by the main existing chain or an additional small chain drive to an extended crank. First thoughts are that the chain drive will be less convenient, more liable to breakdown/reliability issues. But the hub version seems quite a serious possibility for me.
I do have a Raleigh 21 speed in good condition, currently being used by my brother, but this is a possibility I hadn't taken seriously. I think it was marketed as not just a road bike, but for not too serious off road - trails and such. From memory I think mine had 700 mm wheels (with slightly knobbly tyres) which seem less well supported by these kits. I'll try to get over to check out a bit more in the next few days.
(I have found one UK legal kit on ebay which would save £100 on carriage over the american kit, but the american one is more powerful and does say it supports 700mm wheels with the brushless motor kit. The UK kit doesn't say it supports 700mm wheels but I need to check....).

My Raleigh has a hardish standard gel seat, no suspension units- can anyone point me to something more comfortable- my last longish ride (around 12 miles) left me with a sore behind. Most rides were shorter so wasn't an issue, but this would change as my habits (lifestyle and finances) change.

Any experiences or thoughts on the kit route? Or a comfy seat if a kit is the choice? Thanks again.

 

[alsmith]

Something I have noticed on 'the bay' recently are these Alien TITAN Electric Sports Bicycle Bike e-bike 21 Sp'd on eBay, also, Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 19-Feb-08 16:13:19 GMT) which seem to be selling, are getting good feedback and not too dear. I haven't seen any tests or reports on them though.

In the meantime good luck.

John

Thanks. I have noticed this bike on ebay but discounted it because of the lack of a rack, or any seemingly easy way to add luggage carriers. Many ebikes seem to be like this. Shame they don't offer the option, but do you know of anything that might be suitable? Battery position seems to make it difficult, and the strange rear mudguard doesn't help. But I did stop and hmmmed a bit as it is quite interesting. So much so I've just emailed the seller to ask.I'll add something if he comes back with anything useful, but do you know of anything that can be added?

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi again,
I think you should have a look at this thread regrading the Alien before making a decision http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1572-love-alien.html

If you have a budget in mind, it would be easier to advise.

John

 

[alsmith]

Thanks for all of the advice.
The mists aren't clear yet. In fact things got more foggy- see below!

From memory I think mine had 700 mm wheels (with slightly knobbly tyres) which seem less well supported by these kits. I'll try to get over to check out a bit more in the next few days.
(I have found one UK legal kit on ebay which would save £100 on carriage over the american kit, but the american one is more powerful and does say it supports 700mm wheels with the brushless motor kit. The UK kit doesn't say it supports 700mm wheels but I need to check....).



Any experiences or thoughts on the kit route? Or a comfy seat if a kit is the choice? Thanks again.

OK, wheels are 26inch, but front fork clearance is 80mm, this calls for min of 4inches clearance. I wonder how much forks are? But being practical it seems as if this route will be closed to me. Oh well, price was getting close to some bikes, advantage is my brother gets a Raleigh Pioneer Elite with Shimano 300LX 21 speed gears in good condition.

Anyone recommend a comfy seat though?

 

[alsmith]

Hi again,
I think you should have a look at this thread regrading the Alien before making a decision http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1572-love-alien.html

If you have a budget in mind, it would be easier to advise.

John

With regard to budget I'm initially thinking of up to £600, while hoping too pay less (like most will do) but am also willing to pay more to get it right- that's the most important thing.

Thanks for the link.
The thread doesn't really seem to reveal very much apart from one person saying it will be slow having never ridden one. He may surmise such, but I bet his lottery number guesses have some inaccuracies in them, real users comments are what is needed, not I think it may but have no experience. The ebay sellers feedback all seems good- need to have a good read through it- but this is often left quickly after a purchase, where 3 or months usage then leaving comments would be far more useful and realistic.
But generally not seeing bad stuff is a plus, more people are willing to complain and moan than give praise where it is due. Exept with ebay where the whole thing is biased towards giving good responses- try leaving even neutral comments and it goes a different route- ebay ask 'are you sure' and other stuff biasing/pushing responses towards positive. You'd almost think they had a business reason for getting all positive feedback.
I emailed the seller and got very quick response- a good start. He has given a suitable back rack reference, and suggested the possibility of a front basket too. I guess I could consider swapping the Shimano LX shifters off my Raleigh and putting the unspecified ones onto it. I wonder if the effort will be worthwhile, but LX shifters have a pretty good reputation. Another question to ask- what model is on the Alien? I think I'll also investigate the wider fork route on the Elite a little further too- get an idea of price (the Raleigh is a pretty reasonable bike).


At the moment I've now got interest in the Alien- with luggage carring capability- and carriers- to add. Making use of the Raleigh also seems tempting- US kit around £340 plus any import duties if the package gets stopped (depends on the entry route to a large extent). A quick search says 30-40% (as VAT is also levied) and some courier companies charge a handling fee as well. They don't say who the courier is but UPS are well known for charging. So this could end up as £340 + forks + ~£140 + courier fees + fees if I get a bike shop to change the forks. That's more than a new Alien. Or it could just be £340.
I wonder where I can find UK buyers of the kit to ask their experiences- it's quite a serious consideration, not just money but hassle.
UK sourced similar kits seem slightly higher kit cost, significantly lower carriage
costs, lower power and probably similar fitting issues with the forks.


This thing seems to be getting even more involved. Keeping me off the streets though

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the link.
The thread doesn't really seem to reveal very much apart from one person saying it will be slow having never ridden one. He may surmise such, but I bet his lottery number guesses have some inaccuracies in them, real users comments are what is needed, not I think it may but have no experience.

I do have a little experience, having first sold and fitted motors to bikes from 1950 onwards, and I've used and converted e-bikes for years. I don't do the lottery, since I don't believe in guessing.

It doesn't take a genius to know the Alien is underpowered with it's 240 watt peak output. Most hub motor bikes have peak outputs between 400 and 700 watts, the Alien being a wimp against those. I only know of one tiny folding bike with a lower output. Further confirmation comes from it's puny battery size.
.

 

[fishingpaul]

Flecc is the resident genius on powered bikes,it would probably be ok on flat ground,but not not up to climbing hills, that alien looks very appealling, but i would advise choosing something that has proven ability,powabyke or giant for example.

 

[alsmith]

I do have a little experience, having first sold and fitted motors to bikes from 1950 onwards, and I've used and converted e-bikes for years. I don't do the lottery, since I don't believe in guessing.

It doesn't take a genius to know the Alien is underpowered with it's 240 watt peak output. Most hub motor bikes have peak outputs between 400 and 700 watts, the Alien being a wimp against those. I only know of one tiny folding bike with a lower output. Further confirmation comes from it's puny battery size.
.

OK and sorry if I came over badly. Would fitting a kit to the Raleigh be a good move, and with the UK speed limits is there an associated power limit? All the UK kits I've seen are at 200W, what is sensible and where could I get a higher powered one? What about my 80mm fork spacing- is this enough for some kits?

From your experience of fitting the motors is hub drive the way to go- I can see potential issues with the roller type driving the tyres, and the added chain type. But I don't know- perhaps they would be a good option?

I really do need your help and experience, and do apologise if I came over too strong- it wasn't meant that way, I don't have experience of what was considered normal or adequate on bikes, I seem to recall having seen that is the legal limit that has now been set.

 

[flecc]

No apology called for alsmith, hence my smiley showing that I was mildly amused!

The 200 or 250 watt indications are notional legal figures, this being an average that motors are supposed to deliver over time. In fact virtually all bike motors kick out much more power, many peaking around 400/450 watts, and a few from 500 to 700 watts. There are also illegal kit motors putting out 1000 watts and more.

The 80mm isn't really enough for a motor, 100mm usually being necessary for front hub motors, so the forks would need to be swapped. You can instead opt for a rear motor, but that means using a multi-sprocket freewheel, and there's a very limited choice of those, so that option isn't popular. Rear motors with freewheel need about 135mm or more rear frame separation.

Roller drives like the old Zap motor have virtually disappeared, their failings being too unacceptable. The only current add-on chain drive unit is the Cyclone, but it's been the subject of lots of justified criticism so can't be recommended. There are some other chain drive units, but they are difficult to get hold of or very illegal in some cases.

So with kits hub motors are the best option. The Tongxin Nano is small, very quiet and surprisingly powerful for it's size, but the rpm model needs to be chosen carefully. Luckily we have some threads running at the moment on that which you can read for advice. The Crystalyte motors are very powerful, mildly illegal and loads of fun, but need to be well fitted due to their power which shouldn't be treated lightly. The Heinzmann motors are well built German products, slightly dated designs, but powerful and reliable, though a bit expensive being made in Germany. There's also the Currie Electrodrive motor which sits to the left of the rear wheel and drives though a spokes attached boss. It's a well established design and quite powerful, though a touch more noisy than some. Many like the power sound though. It's chief advantage is that it's cheap and theres a free choice of batteries, cheap SLA (lead-acid) or better NiMh or Lithium types. Disadvantage is the that an eye has to kept on the spoke attachment block to keep it tight, or broken spokes can result.

Hope that's some initial help. As you narrow down the sort of cycling you want to do, and your area and hill climb needs, we'll be able to help further.

That said, I still think a complete bike is best for starters, since many of these kits can present installation difficulties and problems with battery choice and mountings.
.

 

[alsmith]

got a little further forward. The hub kit won't fit my existing bike (fork spacing), local bike shop- friendly and has worked on bikes, kits, points me away fron new forks as has had problems fitting larger forks and electric drives in the past, bearings, strength....
So, your advice and his concur on a ready fitted bike for me.

In the price I set earlier there's a few choices, but things seem to be moving forward.
So- as examples- the ebay Alien has front hub drive, Li-Ion, can fit rack and proper shaped mudguard for luggage so would seem reasonable starter. Also the Izip bikes mentioned earlier. Izip Trailz ST Gents AL 26 has prefitted racks, Lead batteries, similar range, second battery pack can be fitted (no prices yet) and claims 450W motor (checking as Izip Urban cruiser says 450W of power from a DC Earth ( 200w Uk )Magnet Motor and could easily be the same as the models are similar). I've asked if they can be supplied with the 450W motor.
Any thoughts/advice on the above? The izip is a currie drive - are their maintainance (spokes?) issues to watch out for? Thoughts on 450 W currie drive v 200W front hub drive? And what if the currie was just 200W? Lead battery v Alien Li=Ion (£125 for a battery - pretty good against what I'd been led to expect for this type).

I'm currently looking through the results of a web search on currie drives- most seem about kits not prefitted, but I guess that this is really just a selected kit not a custom built one anyway.

Thanks again!

 

[alsmith]

Sorry- went and looked at a few of the local hills. The local river used to be a lot bigger, but has cut well down and although not long gradients on 3 (nothing on a fourth) are up to 14%- obviously this is average for a hills with steeper and flatter at various points. These are cuttings and possibly 1/4 mile at most. The 14% one is short steep and straight Further along are longer hills dropping similar distances so the average for the hill is probably lower. There are other hills I'd be traveling on occasion- steeper in places and longer overall around a mile up and down- but not a regular thing. Some routes will be long,steady noticeable but not so steep inclines that go on for several miles. I'd guess the u8sual more power is better, but how would you expect the 200W (240W peak) hub to perform?

 

[flecc]

A bike like the Alien is good if you are a quite strong cyclist and want to carry on as a cyclist, but have a bit of help for hills and headwinds, the times when the going gets difficult. Then that extra 240 watts peak roughly doubles your input, but offset by the extra motor/battery weight being carried, so the net effect in hill climbing is of about half your power added. The small battery is normally a suspect item on these cheaper bikes, but with such a low current demand, it could perform reasonably, though with newer battery technologies there's always a possibility of short life. Make sure of the price and easy availability of replacements.

The Currie bike or kit is a lot more powerful. They've varied over time, but 400 to 450 watts peak is typical, but a little of that is lost in the transmission. If used as usual with the SLA batteries which are heavy, that loses more of the power of course, and the cheap bikes with those are all steel and very heavy too, losing still more of the power. It's noisier than a hub motor, a buzzing power sound which most don't mind, not terribly loud but people will notice you passing.

The kit version has to have have to have 36 spoke 3 cross wheel builds to suit the spoke engagement block, which is for normal hubs only, no hub gears, only derailleurs. There is occasionally a broken spoke, but if the wheel build is right with even tensions and the spoke block is mounted and clamped well, they don't normally give trouble. The complete bikes don't have this spoke block problem.

On the hills, the 14% can be hard work with a lowish powered motor, but difficult to be precise due to not knowing your contribution. The perception can be very different between a regular cyclist and one who hasn't cycled for years! Most e-bikes are fairly easy on up to 10%, but the real work starts at that onwards, where the more powerful motors at 500 to 700 watts pay off.
.

 

[MaryinScotland]

An area with steep hills points out one of the advantages of e-bike over pedelec. (E-bike: can be powered without pedalling, usually by hand throttle. Pedelec: motor only works when the pedals are turning.) If you come to a hill that defeats the rider/motor combination, you get off and walk. With an e-bike, you can use the motor to pull the bike up the hill while you walk beside it (provided the control is variable enough to give you a walking pace). With a pedelec, you are pushing the whole weight of the bike.

 

[alsmith]

The Currie bike or kit is a lot more powerful. They've varied over time, but 400 to 450 watts peak is typical, but a little of that is lost in the transmission. If used as usual with the SLA batteries which are heavy, that loses more of the power of course, and the cheap bikes with those are all steel and very heavy too, losing still more of the power. It's noisier than a hub motor, a buzzing power sound which most don't mind, not terribly loud but people will notice you passing.

The kit version has to have have to have 36 spoke 3 cross wheel builds to suit the spoke engagement block, which is for normal hubs only, no hub gears, only derailleurs. There is occasionally a broken spoke, but if the wheel build is right with even tensions and the spoke block is mounted and clamped well, they don't normally give trouble. The complete bikes don't have this spoke block problem.

On the hills, the 14% can be hard work with a lowish powered motor, but difficult to be precise due to not knowing your contribution. The perception can be very different between a regular cyclist and one who hasn't cycled for years! Most e-bikes are fairly easy on up to 10%, but the real work starts at that onwards, where the more powerful motors at 500 to 700 watts pay off.
.

Thanks!

But- Just when things seem to be crystalising..........

Well, those people selling the Currie bike (Izip) haven't bothered answering, that;s despite a chaser. And they have changed the specs have been changed since I asked- where it said 450W it now says 200W. In response to my questions I'd guess. Seems they got the emails, not replied to me but have changed the site in response to my question. Also see my note a couple of paragraphs on......
one changed link is here:
Electric Bikes ,Trikes and Bicycles - IZIP ELECTRIC BIKES - Izip Trailz ST Gents AL 26 ( Free Shipping to UK Mainland & Scottish Borders)

Impression of them is far from favourable- if they don't give answers, but respond by changing specs while ignoring you what does that say about what you can expect after a purchase?

(Another note about them: This company has two web sites- they seem to trade under 2 names from the same address. The other site- well they haven;t changed those specs- still says 450W- maybe until someone asks the same question? Seems like the spec shown isn;t what is sold).

So, the bikes all seem to be 200W, unless someone can point me elsewhere?

What about the possibility of buying the bike, then getting a more powerful hub and fitting it? Are 400W+ hubs available anywhere in the UK? Of 400W+ Currie unit for a bike from the possibly unreliable poweredbicycle company? I don't think I'd mind retrofitting a suitable higher powered unit, I could try the lower powered 200W unit first to see if it meets my needs, upgrading if (when) needed. And I'd have a spare in case it's needed at any stage.
So- can I UK source a bore powerful Currie or hub unit to replace a 200W one? Where would I obtain them from?

It's a shame that poweredbicycles don't seem to want to answer my questions and have changed the specs- I was thinking that was the way I'd be going. Anyhow a third email has been sent- perhaps they might consider answering..........

 

[alsmith]

An area with steep hills points out one of the advantages of e-bike over pedelec. (E-bike: can be powered without pedalling, usually by hand throttle. Pedelec: motor only works when the pedals are turning.) If you come to a hill that defeats the rider/motor combination, you get off and walk. With an e-bike, you can use the motor to pull the bike up the hill while you walk beside it (provided the control is variable enough to give you a walking pace). With a pedelec, you are pushing the whole weight of the bike.

Thanks- that is one of the things I've picked up from my reading, and from Flecs advice. It was already decided as an essential due to my earlier mentioned medical issues. These have noticeably worsened since my hospital appointment in November, aches seem to be more focused in the joints than before with weakness in the limbs. I'll want to pedal when possible- for exercise but will need the powered option at times too when minimal input will be possible.