Newbie advice

[ElectroBiker]

Hi Forum

Apologies if these questions have already been asked many times before but I am at work and do not have time to trawl the history of posts so I will just ask anyway!!

Some points:
- Money not an issue in my choices provided can justify the benefits.
- I love cycling on tow paths and roads and occasionally mountain biking but I have found that because it is occasional I spend half the time pushing my bike up - I think I would get more into it with electro help!

1.
Hybrid or pedelec? I would be happy with pedelec but it seems to me that if I have the option of not pedaling from time to time then why not have the option? Basically if two bikes were about eually as good but one had the hybrid option I would choose that one but if the best pedelecs are a lot better than any hybrid i would go for pedelec.

I know very little about this so any comments appreciated.

2.
I already have a specialized hardrock mountain bike - its not the best in the world but has a good frame - would it be best to modify this with a kit or buy complete package bike. Again depends upon how much better one option is over the other in terms of performance etc.

3.
Are the laws likely to change soon regarding:
- hybids
- pedelecs

4.
How does the pedelec work when you hit 15mph? Does it cu out when you hit this speed or is it just that it only offers 15mph of help and you can cycle at 40mph with it as long as 25mph effort is from me?

5.
How easy is it to modify the ikes to supply more effort and speed?

6.
How do the law enforce the limits? Are they checking people bikes, what are the chances of getting pulled up on a modified bike and what are the consequences? (by the way - these are just questions I do not intend breaking the law but am interested in how easy it would be to modify for off road and then reset for on road)

7.
Do bikes have an off road mode (power beyond legal road limit) and on road mode that can be easily switched and what is the law in terms of having a these modes?

8.
Are there good e-bikes for off road (i.e. strong frames)

10.
What new technology is coming and how will that change what currently on the market - how soon do current bikes become old tech?

9.
Some suggestions on what to research further based on following would be appreciated (no I am not asking you to choose for me but think of it as what would you consider if in my position)
- I am 5 ft 7
- Weight 10st 8lbs (65kgish)
- have a specailized hardrock
- money not an issue really
- would buy new bike or convert
- some road use
- lots of light off road
- occasional proper mountain biking
- hybrid good option IF pedelec mode as good as on pure pedelec bikes
- the more power and longer battery life the better
- Look not key but nice if look something like a mountain bike rather than a girlt bike

Thanks for any comments in advance.....I have just discovered e-bikes and in the 'very interested need to know more' mode.

When I get a chance I may well visit Kidderminster shop and have a look there but like to know a bit before i talk to sale people.

Thanks
ElecroBiker (the first Electro Hells Angel?)

 

[Mussels]

Unfortunately most of your questions do not have clear answers, it's down to personal preference and you need to work out for yourself what is needed.
On the technology side there are not likely to be huge changes that make it worth waiting, the new Wisper 906 is due out soon and that may be what you are looking for as it has all the pedelec and throttle options you are looking for in a top of the range bike.
For offroad riding you are better off with a Panasonic motor which is in several bikes but has no throttle option and the pedelec assistance is limited to low cadences.
You could put a kit on your existing bike but then it won't be much good for anything rougher than a dirt track.

 

[flecc]

1.
Hybrid or pedelec? I would be happy with pedelec but it seems to me that if I have the option of not pedaling from time to time then why not have the option? Basically if two bikes were about eually as good but one had the hybrid option I would choose that one but if the best pedelecs are a lot better than any hybrid i would go for pedelec.

The best pedelec systems are those on integrated pedelec only units like the Panasonic crank motor that's fitted to various bikes. Those bikes with throttles often have somewhat compromised pedelec function.

2.
I already have a specialized hardrock mountain bike - its not the best in the world but has a good frame - would it be best to modify this with a kit or buy complete package bike. Again depends upon how much better one option is over the other in terms of performance etc.

Complete bike is usually best, battery integrated and less chance of bugs. Kits are mostly expensive, only the Alien and Cyclone ones more reasonably priced at present.

3.
Are the laws likely to change soon regarding:
- hybids
- pedelecs

The pedelec only law is due to be enforced in about two years, but that doesn't matter. Existing bikes at that time can just carry on in use.

4.
How does the pedelec work when you hit 15mph? Does it cut out when you hit this speed or is it just that it only offers 15mph of help and you can cycle at 40mph with it as long as 25mph effort is from me?

It doesn't necessarily cut out in all cases, but when the motor maxes out at about 15 mph it's not helping anyway, so it makes no difference either way. At 40 mph you would be doing all the work, not just 25 mph worth.

5.
How easy is it to modify the bikes to supply more effort and speed?

Hub motors can be modified for more speed with a higher voltage battery and a new controller, but that's very expensive to do.

6.
How do the law enforce the limits? Are they checking people bikes, what are the chances of getting pulled up on a modified bike and what are the consequences? (by the way - these are just questions I do not intend breaking the law but am interested in how easy it would be to modify for off road and then reset for on road)

Nobody is checking at present. The chances of being caught are miniscule, but if caught with a technically illegal bike, the consequences could be severe since it would be an unregistered, unlicenced and uninsured motor vehicle in law. You could suffer a driving ban in addition to the fines.

7.
Do bikes have an off road mode (power beyond legal road limit) and on road mode that can be easily switched and what is the law in terms of having a these modes?

No. A very small number of bikes can be derestricted to give about 18 or 20 mph, and a switch can be fitted to those. They are illegal if switched to high speed mode and a prosecution attempt is possible even if not in that mode, just on the grounds of the switch option being available. A magistrate's court could find guilt, necessitating an appeal to attempt to get it overturned. The chances of this happening are very small though.

8.
Are there good e-bikes for off road (i.e. strong frames)

They aren't generally designed that way and most are unsuitable. A Mussels has said, the Panasonic type crank motor type is best, the unit and battery central so insulated a bit from shocks. The BH E-motion Cross de Luxe and Cross both are Panasonic driven and designed for highway and byway, so probably the best production bikes for that light offroad use. Click Emotion on this link to see those two options.

9.
What new technology is coming and how will that change what currently on the market - how soon do current bikes become old tech?

Not much. We are hoping for the lithium iron phosphate batteries eventually on production bikes, but that's likely to be a little while yet. Most of the best bikes stay similar over years, for example, Panasonic have had one motor change in 8 years, Wisper are just introducing their second main range in addition, the existing range continuing and not outdated, eZee have introduced a new motor but only changed one bike model appreciably in 5 years.

10.
Some suggestions on what to research further based on following would be appreciated (no I am not asking you to choose for me but think of it as what would you consider if in my position)
- I am 5 ft 7
- Weight 10st 8lbs (65kgish)

- have a specailized hardrock
- money not an issue really
- would buy new bike or convert
- some road use
- lots of light off road
- occasional proper mountain biking
- hybrid good option IF pedelec mode as good as on pure pedelec bikes
- the more power and longer battery life the better
- Look not key but nice if look something like a mountain bike rather than a girly bike[/quote]

You're very similar in height and weight to me, so watch out for bike size. Most makes don't give a choice and you may find a few too big. The best advice is to try out as many as possible since there are some big differences. For example, the way most hub motors compared with the Panasonic type unit work is very different, and you might find you like one much better than the other.

In summary, the right bike is the one you like and which suits your purposes, it's virtually impossible for anyone else to judge that.
.

 

[Phil [OnBike]]

OnBike Electric Bikes

Hi ElectroBiker,

My name is Phil and I'm from OnBike in Kidderminster.

We have a large range of electric bikes and over 15 models for demonstration in our showroom - this may be of interest to you as you can try out all the various technologies from many manufacturers including E-motion bikes that use the Panasonic pedelec system.

With regards to off-roading, you may be interested in a Wisper 905 or E-motion Cross Deluxe?

You're more than welcome to come and spend some time with us and try the bikes, so just drop me an e-mail to phil@onbike.co.uk or call me 01299 25 15 14 or post on here if you have any questions.

Many thanks

 

[ElectroBiker]

Thanks all for the replies much appreciated and thanks Flecc for spending time to reply to individual questions - very informative

 

[Caph]

Hi, I've got the Galileo by Powered Bicycles. It's done about 2500 miles so far and although I use it mainly for commuting I also do recreational off-roading on it whenever I get the chance.

It's got full suspension (Kind Shock rear air suspension), with Shimano Acera gears, Zoom forks, and it was the closest I could find to a decent electric MTB. There really isn't a lot to choose from in this category unfortunately. The battery is clamped to the seat which means it benefits from the full suspension too. I would guess that the gears and forks are probably not up to the standard you are used to but I suppose you could swap them out. I upgraded my disk brakes to Avid BB7s a while back and they are frighteningly fierce. The ones that came with the bike were OK though, but you can't swap out the front rotor because it has a non-standard fitting.

I've been extremely pleased with it. I was out this morning and hit 27mph on a downhill bridleway. The faster you go the better the suspension seems to cope. I'm normally a bit of a wimp when it comes to downhill but I was quite pleased with myself this morning! As long as you are happy to accept the fact that you will be riding a heavier bike I think you'll find it a good trade off for the assistance that you get going uphill.

As Flecc has said, a crank motor keeps the weight central whereas a front hub motor (which I have) makes your front wheel heavy - about 4kgs heavier which takes a bit of getting used to when off-road. There is a benefit to it though in that you effectively have all wheel drive which is handy on off-road slippery surfaces.

Good luck in finding a bike. There are a few off-roaders on this forum so I mainly wanted to post to let you know that it is definitely possible!

 

[fishingpaul]

Hi Forum

Apologies if these questions have already been asked many times before but I am at work and do not have time to trawl the history of posts so I will just ask anyway!!

Some points:
- Money not an issue in my choices provided can justify the benefits.
- I love cycling on tow paths and roads and occasionally mountain biking but I have found that because it is occasional I spend half the time pushing my bike up - I think I would get more into it with electro help!

1.
Hybrid or pedelec? I would be happy with pedelec but it seems to me that if I have the option of not pedaling from time to time then why not have the option? Basically if two bikes were about eually as good but one had the hybrid option I would choose that one but if the best pedelecs are a lot better than any hybrid i would go for pedelec.

I know very little about this so any comments appreciated.

2.
I already have a specialized hardrock mountain bike - its not the best in the world but has a good frame - would it be best to modify this with a kit or buy complete package bike. Again depends upon how much better one option is over the other in terms of performance etc.

3.
Are the laws likely to change soon regarding:
- hybids
- pedelecs

4.
How does the pedelec work when you hit 15mph? Does it cu out when you hit this speed or is it just that it only offers 15mph of help and you can cycle at 40mph with it as long as 25mph effort is from me?

5.
How easy is it to modify the ikes to supply more effort and speed?

6.
How do the law enforce the limits? Are they checking people bikes, what are the chances of getting pulled up on a modified bike and what are the consequences? (by the way - these are just questions I do not intend breaking the law but am interested in how easy it would be to modify for off road and then reset for on road)

7.
Do bikes have an off road mode (power beyond legal road limit) and on road mode that can be easily switched and what is the law in terms of having a these modes?

8.
Are there good e-bikes for off road (i.e. strong frames)

10.
What new technology is coming and how will that change what currently on the market - how soon do current bikes become old tech?

9.
Some suggestions on what to research further based on following would be appreciated (no I am not asking you to choose for me but think of it as what would you consider if in my position)
- I am 5 ft 7
- Weight 10st 8lbs (65kgish)
- have a specailized hardrock
- money not an issue really
- would buy new bike or convert
- some road use
- lots of light off road
- occasional proper mountain biking
- hybrid good option IF pedelec mode as good as on pure pedelec bikes
- the more power and longer battery life the better
- Look not key but nice if look something like a mountain bike rather than a girlt bike

Thanks for any comments in advance.....I have just discovered e-bikes and in the 'very interested need to know more' mode.

When I get a chance I may well visit Kidderminster shop and have a look there but like to know a bit before i talk to sale people.

Thanks
ElecroBiker (the first Electro Hells Angel?)

I think most of your questions have already been well answered,but i would add,most bikes reduce power at around 15 mph,even derestricted bikes only assist to 22mph and getting to 40 mph especially on the flat can be much harder than on a normal bike, this is due to the extra drag from the motor on some bikes,others can have very little drag from the motor but would be a bit heavier than a standard bike so still need extra effort at higher speeds,i would also budget around £400 for a new battery every two years at current prices, onbike look to have a good choice of bikes if possible try as many as you can before deciding,a cytronex would also be well worth trying if you want as close as possible to a normal bike with around 20 miles range.

 

[andyh2]

The Endless Sphere e-bike forum has several examples of off-road oriented e-bikes, though just about all would be illegal on the road over here. Leonardo on this site linked to this very nice looking Specialized full sus with panasonic motor conversion project;
Forum Indipendente Biciclette Elettriche - Panasonic bi ammortizzata, progetto

There are several e-bikes that would be good for road and light off road I used my Agattu off road a fair bit and it was very nice to get up hills I'd usually be walking up. I took it very easy on the downhills though not having the suspension, brakes or tyres specifically suited to fast off road riding. You do need to start measuring battery capacity by time rather than distance though, as very steep hills and rough tracks shorten range a lot.

The extra length of Panasonic motored bikes give additional stability downhill, but the same feature makes them less good for really tight stuff.

Any bike for road AND full on off road riding ends up compromising both as the brakes, suspension and tyres requirements for each are so polarised.

I've accepted for myself that it's much less of a compromise to focus on a bike for road / light off road for my e-bike and hope that all the extra riding I do on a day to day commuting basis will give some additional fitness for riding an unassisted bike set up for the rough stuff. (And since that bike is a singlespeed I don't have to feel so bad about walking up the steep bits )

 

[andyh2]

Oh I forgot the link to these very much off road only e-bikes
Stealth Electric Bikes | Bikes on Steroids | Springvale VIC

 

[Mussels]

Oh I forgot the link to these very much off road only e-bikes
Stealth Electric Bikes | Bikes on Steroids | Springvale VIC

I like the look of the tyres on the bommer, anyone know what they are?

 

[andyh2]

Could be Schalbe Big Apple or Super Moto tyres,

 

[Caph]

Paul, I forgot to mention that I completed a 47 mile (should have been 37 miles but I kept getting lost) trip round Nottingham last summer on my bike. I got it out of the excellent Nottinghamshire Mountain Bike Guide by Stewart Thompson. It should have taken 6.5 hours but ended up taking 8.5 hours. It is 73% off-road and there is absolutely no way I could have managed it without the electric assist.

I very rarely do anything that major but the electric bike gives me the option of experiencing what I should not be able to achieve, which I believe is what you are looking for.

 

[Caph]

Any bike for road AND full on off road riding ends up compromising both as the brakes, suspension and tyres requirements for each are so polarised.

Andy, I've been thinking about this today and I don't think it's right. A 700C bike with no suspension and rim brakes is useless for off road but excels on road. A 26" MTB with wide tyres, disk brakes and full suspension excels off-road but requires a lot of extra effort on-road.

If that was the total equation then that would be that, but add a motor and suddenly inefficiency becomes a moot point because it's the motor that takes the extra strain and not the rider. The only sacrifice then is distance per charge. If that is not important then suddenly a highly efficient electric road bike looks almost totally pointless. The added versatility, stopping power and comfort of the full suspension mountain bike at no rider cost is almost a no-brainer.

Basically what I'm saying is that if you're looking for an off AND on road electric bike then you don't need to compromise. Just get a full featured electric MTB and let the motor pick up the extra strain. It's a win-win as far as I can see.

 

[Caph]

Any bike for road AND full on off road riding ends up compromising both as the brakes, suspension and tyres requirements for each are so polarised.

Andy, I've been thinking about this today and I don't think it's right. A 700C bike with no suspension and rim brakes is useless for off road but excels on road. A 26" MTB with wide tyres and full suspension excels off-road but requires a lot of extra effort on-road.

If that was the total equation then that would be that, but add a motor and suddenly inefficiency becomes a moot point because it's the motor that takes the extra strain and not the rider. The only sacrifice then is distance per charge. If that is not important then suddenly a highly efficient electric road bike looks almost totally pointless. The added versatility, stopping power and comfort of the full suspension moutain bike at no rider cost is almost a no-brainer.

Basically what I'm saying is that if you're looking for an off AND on road electric bike then you don't need to compromise. Just get a full featured electric MTB and let the motor pick up the extra strain. It's a win-win as far as I can see.

 

[andyh2]

I'm a bit 'princess and the pea' about my bikes and I don't really like the sound that comes with wide knobbly tyres on tarmac. That said I can see your thinking makes a lot of sense Caph.

At the time of getting the Kalkhoff I had additional compromises to make in that I wanted to be able to take panniers for shopping and a child seat for the little 'un. A bit of a tall order for a full sus seatpost mounted battery e-bike.

There's still the power delivery issue with hub motors. My Tongxin is great from around 8.5mph to it's 14.5mph max. If I were using the same motor for steep off road climbing I'd prefer to have that power from say 4mph - 10mph but I couldn't have both in the same bike. Perhaps it wouldn't be too big a deal to have 2 front motor wheels and swap them out as required. I don't know if the Tongxin is robust enough for rough off road and there's no disc option so another hub could be better.

The market is probably ready for a Kalkhoff, or other maker, manufactured full sus with the panasonic system. But that will be at a considerable cost compared to the Galileo that seems to be providing plenty of reliable fun for you.

 

[Caph]

At the time of getting the Kalkhoff I had additional compromises to make in that I wanted to be able to take panniers for shopping and a child seat for the little 'un. A bit of a tall order for a full sus seatpost mounted battery e-bike.

Now that is one area you definitely do have to compromise on with a full suspension bike. I would love to have panniers but with the battery taking up so much room on the seatpost there is barely enough room for a mudguard!

The market is probably ready for a Kalkhoff, or other maker, manufactured full sus with the panasonic system. But that will be at a considerable cost compared to the Galileo that seems to be providing plenty of reliable fun for you.

You're not going to believe this but yesterday morning on the way in to work the thumb throttle snapped, then yesterday evening on the way back from work my frame snapped! Talk about speaking too soon. It's an ongoing saga all relating from attaching, of all things, a stand to the bike.

It looks like I'll need a new frame now...

Oh well, these things are sent to test us I suppose.

 

[andyh2]

Bad luck Caph. I hope you get it sorted easily enough.

 

[simonbarnett]

then yesterday evening on the way back from work my frame snapped!

I may not have as much experience as others, but I've never heard of this happening. Am i just naive? Caph seems so relaxed about it.

 

[Straylight]

I snapped a frame once, on an ancient steel frame mountain bike. Went over a bump, then bam, the rear fork went - it'd had a hareline fracture for a while, judging by the amount of rust in the break.

Caph's incident sounds similar, and why not be relaxed about it, getting angry won't help .

 

[simonbarnett]

I snapped a frame once, on an ancient steel frame mountain bike. Went over a bump, then bam, the rear fork went - it'd had a hareline fracture for a while, judging by the amount of rust in the break.

Caph's incident sounds similar, and why not be relaxed about it, getting angry won't help .

Sounds logical- old, tired ,fractured and then snaps- my daughters would agree