Newbie - on the verge of purchase

Ian · Oct 20, 2007

Hello Rab and welcome to the forum. I have no personal experience of any the bikes on your shortlist but do know that the Powacycle Salisbury probably has the best reputation, however it's not particularly powerful and would need considerable help on the steepest of your hills. The iZip is more powerful and better able to cope on hills, it's weight is rather daunting because of the old technology lead-acid batteries,which do have a plus point in being relatively cheap to replace.
I personally wouldn't touch the other 2 bikes, I doubt they're sufficiently well built to stand the rigours of a daily commute.

You are right in thinking that the iZip has internal motor gearing, but the hub motor bikes also have internal motor gearing built into the hub. The iZips advantage comes from it's more powerful motor rather than differences in gearing.

I wouldn't put too much importance on quoted ranges, at best these can only be a very rough guide being hugely influenced by hills, rider weight, riding style and of course the amount of exaggeration built in to the claim. A 7 mile journey by an experienced cyclist should be achievable under most circumstances though.

The extra cost of the Salisbury comes from it's better NiMh battery, light alloy frame and better build quality than some budget bikes which are truly awful.

Whether having a throttle is an advantage is largely a matter of personal preference. many users moving from a conventional cycle regard having to operate a throttle as an inconvenience, but ex motorcyclists tend to prefer throttles. I think most users would easily adapt to either.
A throttle on a bike with a non-pedelec mode does give the rider the ability to "walk" the bike up hills beyond it's capability while applying power.

Hope that makes things clearer.

flecc · Oct 20, 2007

I side with Ian on those choices of either the Izip or the Salisbury. The Salisbury will climb most hills, but only slowly and as Ian said, it would make you contribute quite a lot, though it would be much easier on the steep hills than unpowered as you are at present.

The Izip is the better climber of the two, and is also a bit faster too, but obviously it's extra weight will take away some of it's performance potential.

E-bikes are power assisted bikes, pedalling being an essential element, and for that reason alone I rule out the two rear suspension bikes. Nothing wastes a rider's pedalling effort as much as rear suspension, the springs soaking up the energy and uselessly dispersing it as heat and vertical thrust into the road. Since the rear suspension is virtually never properly damped, the rebound bounce upsets riding rhythm and further detracts from a riders performance.

Ideally you would be better off with a rather more powerful bike on that route, but those are mostly at much higher prices, and some only come with Lithium batteries which I couldn't recommend on a route with sustained climbs due to their propensity for cutting out on continuous loads.

If the budget is definitely restricted to your suggested bikes, the Izip is my choice, accepting that it would need to be charged at both ends to make sure the range would cover that hilly route.
.

flecc · Oct 20, 2007

I think your reply might have crossed my above reply Rab. (Just read that it did!)

On most pedelec modes, the power only comes in with pedalling, but is quite crudely applied at either the full rate, or when it's combined with a throttle, at the rate you set on the throttle. There are some very expensive bikes that control the power in a sophisticated way, but they won't concern you.

If you use the link below, you'll get a description of a hub motor's internals, a working diagram with photos and description of a bikes geared motor parts:

Hall effect hub motor

Gross peak powers range from about 180 watts to 700 watts on these motors. The Powacycle motor output is 272 watts at around 7 mph, the Currie Izip approximately 400 watts at around 9 mph, but of course it has more weight to haul.
.

coops · Oct 21, 2007

Hi Rab & good luck with your choice (hope the learning curve is smooth for you!)

I don't disagree with Ian or flecc's reasoning or advice and I can see why the Izip's power for hills gives it the edge, on paper, over the Salisbury.

I'd strongly advise a test ride of any bike but especially the izip if you're inclined to it because, though its the only one of those four I've ridden, to be frank I found it was very hard work to pedal i.e. had a high resistance through the pedals when pedalling: it may have been a fault on that particular bike, but one or two others have said similar, so I think its not, (sorry, that's probably exactly what you didn't want to hear

) but try it first for yourself to be sure

.

As far as I'm aware then, I couldn't recommend the Izip for much, if any, pedal assist (i.e. use as motor bike only), for any age or fitness level (unless you actually wanted to increase workload for "resistance" training!) and that would clearly offset some of its higher power for hill-climbing: the motor must compensate for any power you do not contribute, plus its own inefficiency losses of at least 20-25% on top, so if you would have contributed say 60W of legpower (gentle/moderate pedalling), the motor would use around 75W or so less power

.

The difficulty of pedalling makes the Izip a poor choice for a bike to ride at all without power (if you're battery went flat or you lost power, you'd be in a tough position) and its very heavy too - not so much a bike with electric assist, more an underpowered motorbike with almost redundant pedals and not an enjoyable riding experience at all I'm afraid...

I know its a budget option, but really not worth it in my view, even for only a 7 mile trip: especially when a better bike may make longer cycling trips a more inviting prospect and fun form of activity & transport

.

I hope that helps.

Stuart.

alex · Oct 21, 2007

Hi Rab. Having just been through the same learning curve as you I would agree with the advice given by others that you try before you buy. I found The Electric Bicycle co. in Edinburgh (Leith) very helpful. They even lent me a Powercycle Salisbury for a weekend to test, I think it might well be the bike for you. They have several demonstrators & you should be able to get a sense of what is important to you regarding choice of modes etc.

coops · Oct 21, 2007

As I recall, Rab, the izip I tried was a throttle bike, with two modes: throttle either with or without pedalling, and pedalling was hard work in any mode, full stop! (i.e. with or without motor power there was a high resistance). I never did find out why, its a mystery and may have been just a problem on that particular bike, but I don't think so. The model was a "Currie Izip", 24V, steel frame & 6-speed gears, I think, which 50cycles used to stock, looks to be the same bike, just cosmetically different, as the one you linked to.

What I meant by "if you lost power" was more in the sense of an unexpected power breakdown, when usually (so long as you can still pedal off in "bike" mode) its not too big a deal & you can get home ok, albeit with a bit more effort. I'd feel a bit stranded in that situation on an izip, knowing how hard it is to pedal... and at 39kg bike weight, you'd also be very hard pushed to carry a spare battery, or any "luggage" for that matter, Rab!

(especially since the battery weighs around 8kg or so!).

Nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries are my personal preferred battery type, even though I'm not in a hilly area, and they're a lot lighter than SLA and longer life, too

. I certainly couldn't recommend lithium batteries either, especially for a more powerful motor.

I just wish I could recommend a bike for that budget, rather than appear to be criticial of one...

If you can manage with the izip's quirks & flaws, or the Salisbury's lower power & speed, or you can get a good deal on a more "high end" model

then you should be ok - but forewarned is forearmed!

.

Stuart.

JohnInStockie · Oct 21, 2007

BossBob said:
why would anyone make a pedelec that is more work than an ordinary push bike?

I think you will find Rab that a lot of the people selling/making these bikes are merely just in it for a quick buck, as they say.

BossBob said:
So, I firmly believe they all do the job, just each has its own design, quirks, strengths and weaknesses, it is those I am trying to understand, the subtle differences.

I think you will probably find that many of the differences between the various options are not that subtle, some will not do the job at all for some people, but will for others (based on the riders fitness and the amount they are prepared to, or want to contribute).

BossBob said:
The Batteries can be charged every 7 miles, so there is no good reason to run out of power

I think what Coops was refering to is loss of power due to a fault. With many of the less well known makes, you run the risk of buying something that will breakdown quite easily.

Overall what you dont want to do is spend £300 - £500 on a bike that you hate to ride and makes every trip a misery, or is simply of such poor quality that its just one repair after another, that would just be money down the drain.

John

coops · Oct 21, 2007

Yes, thanks John

your last comment sums up what I was getting at. Also, I think many members here found riding a good ebike quite "addictive", riding it much further & more often than they'd planned, so that's worth bearing in mind, and some have also bought cheap models which became ureliable & had little or no "dealer" support and paid the price for the lottery (some won out, or at least for a while

), so you'd be far from the first to do that...

It was your comment, Rab, about arriving at work "knackered", which prompted me to post my experience of the izip: I honestly hope it was just the one I rode had a fault, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't the case.

I haven't ridden many ebikes, so a personal recomended shortlist from me would be very short and not at all comprehensive, but to be more more positive I can say that I rode an Ezee Liv (for instance) the same day as the izip, and although it's styling may not be to everyone's taste it was a far better ride - plenty of power, very smooth and easy to pedal with easy-to-use hub gears (only 3-speed, but adequate for most purposes). Total bike weight was not too heavy and it is highly rated by AtoB, aswell as many forum members here

. Get one with NiMH and you're laughing

.

I have to say, I've just been pricing up a reasonable "electric conversion kit" for a friend who's insisting on a DIY job, and the cheapest "ok" sounding kit, plus a battery ("bike" not included!), would cost in the region of at least £300-400 alone, double that for a more "pucker" kit

so its really not surprising its hard to find a quality bike plus motor etc. for that price! (A 24V NiMH of D-Cells alone costs over £100 now, I believe, and 36V nearer £200, not including charger - another £30-50 on top...)

Stuart.

JohnInStockie · Oct 21, 2007

Ezee Liv

You make a good point there Stuart (Coops). Its a shame the budget cannot be stretched to the price of the Liv, as at £695 its an excellent value bike with great reviews all round.

Of course, where then do you 'draw the line' with a Wisper 905e at only £850?

Rab, I think as suggested try first, it might be that none of these bikes can do what you need them to do.

John

Canadian Cadence · Oct 21, 2007

I am going to chime here with some of my observations with the iZIP. I have a true 3 way power bike (bionx) that has a true pedelec mode , pedal only and a throttle and I have an iZIP. There is no way I would take the iZIP out on a pedal only drive because it is too heavy and not much free wheeling. When you use the throttle it does not accept input from pedaling well and you seem to be fighting the motor to aid it.
These are all observations made when comparing it with the better e-bikes out there.
I bought the iZIP thinking it was a good deal and wanted another bike for the family (It was one third the cost of the Bionx) But it is more a novelty and no one wants to ride it so I am selling it .
I think the words of Stuart above says it all....You will find a good a e bike addictive and it will make you want to use it more.....they are fun.

Take the bikes for a test ride and if you can put more money in your investment and purchase a newer technology bike it will be money well spent.

coops · Oct 21, 2007

£695 for the Liv with lithium battery, so should be (at least) £50-100 less than that with NiMH, if & when they're available as that option, which would be more suitable for Rab's terrain & wallet

.

I remember when the Liv first appeared, all of 6 months ago, at £545 for the NiMH model...

coops · Oct 21, 2007

Thanks for your post CC - your experience sounds consistent with my albeit brief test ride and to my mind increases the circumstantial evidence that its a design fault on the bike.

As for addictive ebikes, the same day I tried the izip I test rode & bought a Torq: as I've already said before, nearly 3 times the price but for this cyclist more than 3 times the bike!!

and I'd say a NiMH Liv is much more than twice the bike the izip is, at less than twice the price

.

Stuart.

Ian · Oct 21, 2007

BossBob said:
why would anyone make a pedelec that is more work than an ordinary push bike? So, I firmly believe they all do the job, just each has its own design, quirks, strengths and weaknesses,

Almost all e-bikes bikes can be harder work than a pedal cycle under certain circumstances. Below a certain speed motors deliver virtually no assistance, if the combined efforts of the bike and rider cannot maintain this speed on hill then the rider is on his/her own. This situation is more likely to occur with a heavy low powered machine.

Sadly there are plenty of budget bikes on the market that don't do the job, I and several other members of this forum know this from experience. As John has pointed out there are sellers out to make a quick buck, they will import a container load of rubbish bikes sell them at a profit and move on before the warranty claims start coming in. Most of these bike are badly constructed from the cheapest parts available in China, some undemanding owners are happy with them but any kind of serious use usually leads to continual problems.

coops · Oct 21, 2007

So you might say some ebike design & manufacture get it more right than others...

It was a big eye-opener for me to learn that aspects of bikes you'd normally almost take for granted as constants, like lack of resistance when freewheeling and/or pedalling for instance, become variables in electric bikes: the contrast between the Giant Twist (drive through gears, very little freewheel resistance) and Twist 2 (hub motor, no motor disengagement, high freewheel resistance) illustrates it clearly.

The situation Ian describes wouldn't be such an issue if ebike design & manufacture was more developed/mature and hub motors had gears too, rather than being ungeared, allowing more efficient performance over a wider speed range: that would largely end the unnecessary questions about "hillclimbing ability" which surround almost all current models and concerns anyone looking to use an ebike in hilly areas.

Stuart.

flecc · Oct 21, 2007

I think that there's some unfairness about the Izip in all the comments about it.

While I agree it's a not a bike to pedal around unpowered, nor are any other £300 e-bikes that I've ever known, all being very heavy using SLA batteries etc. But it is reasonably powerful and a moderately capable hill climber, and as Rab has said, that is his budget level and he can't justify a £650 to £700 bike

Of course the BionX outfit is very much better, but in a typical bike in the UK for Rab, it's at least the price of three Izips, and the UK 250 watt BionX is low powered and a poor hill climber so unsuitable for Rab. And of course there's the little matter of it's replacement battery price, almost two Izips alone.

The fact is that we have some members who have bought and like the Izip, one expressing himself as delighted with it and the way it handles the hills, and I don't know of a better e-bike for Rab's journey at £349 or less.
.

coops · Oct 21, 2007

You're right, that's a fair comment flecc

I never meant to start a bike-slagging-off session...

but only wanted to point out a potential, quite unexpected and (to me) major failing of the bike to prevent any later disappointment...

I forgot the golden rule though that what suits one doesn't always suit another! But as I tried to say earlier, Rab, if thats how the bike is then at least you know and can decide whether thats acceptable for you, and likewise for the Salisbury re its lower power output than some other bikes

.

I recall an Izip owner delighted with its hill performance (it was a folding model I think?), and indeed I've read comments elsewhere about its ease of modification if wanted, but from my own experience and some comments of others I suggest it is not a bike suitable for anyone who wants to pedal assist the motor without having to push hard on the pedals - its not just without the motor power, or due to the bike being heavy, or the tyres too thick, or possibly under pressurised, or because its in too high a gear, but because there is something else causing a constant, inbuilt resistance to turning the pedals (like being constantly 2 or 3 gears too high, all the time, whatever the gear) - possibly the rear wheel is somehow not properly disengaged from the motor, despite the apparent presence of a freewheel, so you're pedalling the hard way against a gearing reduction in the motor or something (I'm no engineer!) like for geared hub motors, only much worse!

I imagine it would be quite good for building bulging leg muscles, but not for a comfortable pedal about

.

Stuart.

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