Over Volting a Yose 350w hub....Newby questions.

[leezen]

G’day G’day Blokes and Sheilas,

Im pretty green with all this ebike stuff but Iv been doing my research and have made up my mind on a kit…..However when you can have some more is always better right?

Ill cut to chase. Im living in Germany now and want to pull the trigger on my first ebike I have decided the Yose Power 350w hub motor is what Ill go for as it comes with a 28” rim so I dont have to lace the rim myself and its a compact discrete motor.

When searching on the Yose website I saw their 48v 12.5Ah was a similar price to the 36v15Ah so I was thinking of over volting the hub motor to get a bit more stick outta it.

I have searched this forum for someone that has done something similar but I couldnt find exactly what I was after or I was too green to know what they were saying.

My question is what would be a suitable controller to get me where I wanna go?

I should add:

This bike is not for long trips but for bush bashin around my area to take photos and enjoy the great outdoors.

Terrain around here is Netherlands flat.

I am aiming for 40kph (Im not sure if thats possible with this but it would be a nice outcome)

I would like to keep the PAS and lighting options if I can.

Im trying to keep this at 500 euros but you know what projects are like a bit over wont hurt.

If you know of a better kit option ether hub or mid drive lettuce know.

Thanks in advance for your help and it really means a lot and if you have any info to add please just write it below .

Cheers

 

[Benjahmin]

If you buy the 36v motor it's winding code will be correct to give it 25kph in the wheel it's built into - or should be.
So, under no load conditions, it should register 28-30kph dropping to around 25 under load.
If you over volt it you will get about 33% more speed (so about 33-34kph) but less torque. As you say you'll be riding it on a billiard table the latter shouldn't be a problem.
You'll need a 48v controller but watch the maximum current, 'cos it's this that can damage the motor. You also need to match the maximum controller current to the batteries ability to deliver it. So if you have a 17A controller your battery needs to have a 20-25A capability to avoid stress and damage.
KT or Kunteng controllers seem to be the most widely favoured. Buy it as a kit c/w display, pedal sensor, brake switches etc.

Now to the throny issue of legality. Not sure on German law or how rigorously it is applied. But I believe this is straying into speed pedelec territory which would require a registration plate and who knows what else.

 

[sjpt]

If you over volt it you will get about 33% more speed (so about 33-34kph) but less torque.

Are you sure that's right, I thought overvolting would give more torque on the same motor. Do you mean less torque on the 36v motor at 48v than with the 48v motor at 48v?

 

[PC2017]

I run a front Yose rated 250w (est 220 rpm) "36v" at 48v, when I had a rear (silver) 350w I did not feel it was all that great quality, the front however has done 10000 mile most on 48v. I have a dual voltage controller so I can switch out my 36v and 48v batteries. On 36v it maxes out at 18mph and 48v full charged(54v) 23mph dropping to 21-22. I have two dual voltage controllers 14a and 17a this does not alter the top speed, the 17a gives a more watts when hill climbing. Aliexpress, I got sine wave feels much smoother than square wave. The 14a is black so on hot days it can be a git, however I stuck two gold "ebay" heatsinks on it last year and it has not over heated once. Going from 36v to 48v increases the RPM of the motor, I would say there is more torque/ quicker acceleration with 48v.

YOSE now ship WITHOUT KT controllers as of last time I checked so this could cause issues. If I was to re-build now from scratch I would be looking at MXUS(front) circa 220rpm motor or BAFANG (rear) 250rpm in the 36v section MAKING SURE they are KT controller compatible, as overvolting would add 25-30% more rpm. I do live around a lot of hills so I would keep the rmp below 300 otherwise it could mean a little more effort when hill climbing that said my mate had a 350rpm motor running a max 20a controller and he clears hills well.

It is best to get your head round RPM, AMPS, BMS, SINE/SQUARE wave and Chinglish for aliexpress. took me a while and I still don't get it, but the proof is in th pudding as my setup works well for me.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/over-volting-36v-hubs.29814/#post-411014 - me when I was green.

 

[Nealh]

The best torque is had by having the correct winding at the required voltage, though max speed will be a little less by 2 or 3 mph. It is common to over volt though the motor is less efficient. On flat terrain then it is a good option, regarding legalities in Germany I don't know how the police deal with it but the German forum has it's fair share of speed and power conversions.
One such was tadpole trike 60v 250w oil cooled 35 - 40a Bafang swxk hub.

Pedelecforum.de is a huge forum and not to dissimilar to ES for tech and modding experts, in fact some of the .de forum users have a big impact and input on ES.

 

[leezen]

If you buy the 36v motor it's winding code will be correct to give it 25kph in the wheel it's built into - or should be.
So, under no load conditions, it should register 28-30kph dropping to around 25 under load.
If you over volt it you will get about 33% more speed (so about 33-34kph) but less torque. As you say you'll be riding it on a billiard table the latter shouldn't be a problem.
You'll need a 48v controller but watch the maximum current, 'cos it's this that can damage the motor. You also need to match the maximum controller current to the batteries ability to deliver it. So if you have a 17A controller your battery needs to have a 20-25A capability to avoid stress and damage.
KT or Kunteng controllers seem to be the most widely favoured. Buy it as a kit c/w display, pedal sensor, brake switches etc.

Now to the throny issue of legality. Not sure on German law or how rigorously it is applied. But I believe this is straying into speed pedelec territory which would require a registration plate and who knows what else.

Ben Thanks so much for your info and calculations it will make choosing a controller a bit easier. I continued to read through this forum andI believe I can get away with 20amps through the motor however I am not sure if the BMS or battery I want to purchase can keep up with it as I am not sure which metric on Yoses website is the correct one. If I have read the graph right the yose power 48v/12.5ah battery has a max current capacity of 30A.

36V 15.6Ah/17.4Ah/20Ah, 48V13Ah/48V15Ah Down Tube Hailong1-2 Battery Lithium-ion Accu E-Bike Electric Bicycle Bottle New Black DIY

1.Technical data Voltage: 36V / 48VCapacity: 15.6Ah/17.4Ah/20Ah, 13Ah/15AhEnergy: 577Wh/644Wh/740Wh, 625Wh/722WhWeight: appr. 3.8kg /3.8kg / 4.2kg /4.0kg /4.1kgSize: 367x90x111mmCell: High Power 18650Cycle Life(time): 1000+Standard Current: 10AMax Current: 20A / 30AProtect Current: 50A /...

yosepower.com

As far as legalities this bike is more of an off road bush bashin unit so Im fine that way.

 

[leezen]

I run a front Yose rated 250w (est 220 rpm) "36v" at 48v, when I had a rear (silver) 350w I did not feel it was all that great quality, the front however has done 10000 mile most on 48v. I have a dual voltage controller so I can switch out my 36v and 48v batteries. On 36v it maxes out at 18mph and 48v full charged(54v) 23mph dropping to 21-22. I have two dual voltage controllers 14a and 17a this does not alter the top speed, the 17a gives a more watts when hill climbing. Aliexpress, I got sine wave feels much smoother than square wave. The 14a is black so on hot days it can be a git, however I stuck two gold "ebay" heatsinks on it last year and it has not over heated once. Going from 36v to 48v increases the RPM of the motor, I would say there is more torque/ quicker acceleration with 48v.

YOSE now ship WITHOUT KT controllers as of last time I checked so this could cause issues. If I was to re-build now from scratch I would be looking at MXUS(front) circa 220rpm motor or BAFANG (rear) 250rpm in the 36v section MAKING SURE they are KT controller compatible, as overvolting would add 25-30% more rpm. I do live around a lot of hills so I would keep the rmp below 300 otherwise it could mean a little more effort when hill climbing that said my mate had a 350rpm motor running a max 20a controller and he clears hills well.

It is best to get your head round RPM, AMPS, BMS, SINE/SQUARE wave and Chinglish for aliexpress. took me a while and I still don't get it, but the proof is in th pudding as my setup works well for me.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/over-volting-36v-hubs.29814/#post-411014 - me when I was green.

PC2017 Cheers Mate for the info it helps me out alot.

Dual voltage controller for 36/48v batteries now that is something I need and didnt know existed.

Yes thats correct I saw they now ship with Linshui controllers. If I was to replace the controller with a KT 17 or 20a sine wave controller what issues could I expect to run into other than plugs not being the same?

Hahah Yes Ill be sure brush up on my Chinglish and Ill take a look at the thread you posted.

Cheers.

 

[sjpt]

As far as legalities this bike is more of an off road bush bashin unit so Im fine that way.

Legal as long as that is on private land not accessible to the public (eg no bridleways, cycle paths, etc)

 

[wheeliepete]

If you plan on replacing the controller straight away, then buying the Yose kit would be a bit of a waste of money. Have a look at Topbikekit, they do the Q/AKM motors which are pretty good and they can also supply any spares parts you may need in the future, which is a great bonus. The AKM100 CST or H are good little motors as long as you are not to heavy or the 128 if you are. Only drawback is postage can be a little heavy for a complete wheel, so you may be better doing the build yourself. They also sell 6 or 9 fet 36/48v sine wave controllers and all the parts you need. That 48v Yose battery will power the above OK.

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[leezen]

The best torque is had by having the correct winding at the required voltage, though max speed will be a little less by 2 or 3 mph. It is common to over volt though the motor is less efficient. On flat terrain then it is a good option, regarding legalities in Germany I don't know how the police deal with it but the German forum has it;s fair share of speed and power conversions.
One such was tadpole trike 60v 250w oil cooled 35 - 40a Bafang swxk hub.

Pedelecforum.de is a huge forum and not to dissimilar to ES for tech and modding experts, in fact some of the .de forum users have a big impact and input on ES.

G'Day Nealh cheers for your reply.

Yeah from what I see around my area unless you're hoonin around the local coppas etc dont say anything but Ill be further out in the bush so its not an issue for me.

Being an english speaker I thought it would be easier to navigate etc here first.

I saw that you run a Yose 350w with a 48v set up. Could you possibly direct me to the controller you use. Also are you using WP Juliet plugs or square plastic type?

Cheers

 

[leezen]

If you plan on replacing the controller straight away, then buying the Yose kit would be a bit of a waste of money. Have a look at Topbikekit, they do the Q/AKM motors which are pretty good and they can also supply any spares parts you may need in the future, which is a great bonus. The AKM100 CST or H are good little motors as long as you are not to heavy or the 128 if you are. Only drawback is postage can be a little heavy for a complete wheel, so you may be better doing the build yourself. They also sell 6 or 9 fet 36/48v sine wave controllers and all the parts you need. That 48v Yose battery will power the above OK.

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Wheeliepete Thanks so much for that Ill look into this right now. Judging by your reply I am guessing you're running this set up at the moment if so how long have you had this set up for?

Cheers

 

[Nealh]

I used a Kt S09S controller, I buy from ofkeet store on AliExp or my last S09S came from Topbikekit.com as did the G370 mini hub. The Yose hub is a Bafang and one of the swk* models rebadged, I prefer block connectors but if one wants a cleaner/neater kit fit then the WP Julets do just that.

Currently like my other hubs the Yose is not in use, I should really think about listing on ebay to sell them as really I have no need for the heavier bigger hub motors and thus far found the G370 to be the best hub I have used. Its real big plus is the unpowered riding of it which pretty much feels like it isn't there, so I can ride my longer rides with lighter smaller batteries.

 

[wheeliepete]

Wheeliepete Thanks so much for that Ill look into this right now. Judging by your reply I am guessing you're running this set up at the moment if so how long have you had this set up for?

Cheers

I do have a 36v AKM100H and the KT 6 fet 20a controller running 48v fitted to one of my bikes, it doesn't get used a great deal, but has not let me down and performs very well. It's about the diameter of a 34T sprocket, so nice and discrete. They have been around for at least 10 years and although prob. not as well made as a Bafang hub, offer good value for money. Nealh has had overheating issues with the 6 fet controller in our blistering summer heat here in UK and long high power climbs and now runs a 9 fet controller, so that upgrade is maybe worth your consideration. They are rated at 22a, which is alittle high for a small motor, but the power can be turned down in the controller settings.

 

[leezen]

I used a Kt S09S controller, I buy from ofkeet store on AliExp or my last S09S came from Topbikekit.com as did the G370 mini hub. The Yose hub is a Bafang and one of the swk* models rebadged, I prefer block connectors but if one wants a cleaner/neater kit fit then the WP Julets do just that.

Currently like my other hubs the Yose is not in use, I should really think about listing on ebay to sell them as really I have no need for the heavier bigger hub motors and thus far found the G370 to be the best hub I have used. Its real big plus is the unpowered riding of it which pretty much feels like it isn't there, so I can ride my longer rides with lighter smaller batteries.

I found the KTS09S on aliexpress and Ofkeet. That shop has a great ad set up its really easy to understand. Cheers for that.

Wheeliepete suggested the AKM motor from topbike and tho I have to lace the wheel myself I think it might be the better deal. Ill price it all up.

 

[leezen]

I do have a 36v AKM100H and the KT 6 fet 20a controller running 48v fitted to one of my bikes, it doesn't get used a great deal, but has not let me down and performs very well. It's about the diameter of a 34T sprocket, so nice and discrete. They have been around for at least 10 years and although prob. not as well made as a Bafang hub, offer good value for money. Nealh has had overheating issues with the 6 fet controller in our blistering summer heat here in UK and long high power climbs and now runs a 9 fet controller, so that upgrade is maybe worth your consideration. They are rated at 22a, which is alittle high for a small motor, but the power can be turned down in the controller settings.

Haha I have no idea how big a 34T sprocket is. Roughly in mm?

9fet it is and keep it under 22a. Roger that!

Did you chose the AKM 100 because of 0.8 weight difference between the AKN 128? (spec says "about 2kg" what ever that means)
I only ask because the price difference between the two isnt too much but I assume you could get more performance out of the 128?

I just priced up the kit and its a good price but the postage to Germany is $89. YIKES

 

[wheeliepete]

AKM100 is 100mm diameter, 128 is 128mm. Yes, chose 100 to keep the weight down. 128 would be fine run at 22a, prob. OK at more. Keep the 100 20a max. Postage is a bit of a killer, It's gone up a lot in last couple of years.

 

[leezen]

AKM100 is 100mm diameter, 128 is 128mm. Yes, chose 100 to keep the weight down. 128 would be fine run at 22a, prob. OK at more. Keep the 100 20a max. Postage is a bit of a killer, It's gone up a lot in last couple of years.

Ah righto I understand now. Its nice when the numbers relate to the product unlike some other manufacturers that just through numbers out into the ether.

Yeah hasnt everything besides my wages. Xp

Do you know if there are any European retailers of the AKM100?

Once again thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

 

[Nealh]

akm 128 is good for 25a, the akm100 suffer issues over 20a. Quite a few on ES and Cwah on here ran in to trouble at over 20a and 48v so if running at 48v use C5 to lower the current to 17/18 max.

 

[leezen]

akm 128 is good for 25a, the akm100 suffer issues over 20a. Quite a few on ES and Cwah on here ran in to trouble at over 20a and 48v so if running at 48v use C5 to lower the current to 17/18 max.

Hahah Okay I need some education on some terms what is ES, Cwah and a C5?

Just outta curiosity is there a way to calculate a ball park figure of what range I could expect from a 12.5ah battery?

If it helps I weigh 70kgs, the bike is a steel frame bike with no suspension and 28" wheels if that helps.

Btw Thank you everyone who has commented you have really really taken the mysticism outta this for me and I have alot of info to go off.

 

[Benjahmin]

ES, is a stateside forum called Endless Sphere.
Cwah was a guy who used to post on here who always had crazy builds.
C5 is a setting parameter within KT controllers.
A rider can expect to use 10-20 watt hours of battery per mile used. The fitter the rider, less windy the conditions, the flater the ride, the lower the figure.
So a 12,5ah battery at 36v is 432Wh (36x12.5). As you are quite light lets assume 10Wh/mile giving around 43miles. On a bad day with loads of shopping 21miles.
Generally the lower the power setting one rides in then the longer the range. On flat bits with the wind behind me, or slight down bits, I pull a brake lever just enough to cut the motoer but not brake - it helps.