Panasonic drive gear idler question

[quilly21]

I have had problems with the chain snatching/jumping since the bike was new.
Kalkhoff pro connect LX 9 derailleur.
Mentioned in other posts over the years, only a problem to me in the rain usually.
Recently though it has wrapped the idler assembly and damaged it.
I see on Flecc's Panasonic site that a dual idler unit is fitted to later derailleur and hub models. I phoned 50 Cycles to see if they could supply the newer dual idler unit,
but was told it is only fitted to hub gear models.
Does anyone have a derailleur model with the dual idler fitted.
It is frustrating that this symptom spoils an otherwise excellent bike.
Incidentally this happened with new chainring, new chain, new cassette and new drive sprocket fitted.

There was a suggestion that 36v & 26v idlers may be different, this was not from 50 cycles but another Panasonic dealer.

 

[NRG]

I have a 9 speed derailleur and found issues when I fitted the smaller tooth drive wheel to my PCS. The thickness of the teeth was causing the problem with the narrow 9 speed chain links. Smoothing down both sides of each tooth by .1mm helped and fitting the wheel onto the shaft one way only seemed to help, the other way would still catch....its still makes a bit of noise under load but it no longer catches. Another forum member tried the same but didn't mange to get it to work...

 

[Hugh]

Recently though it has wrapped the idler assembly and damaged it.
I see on Flecc's Panasonic site that a dual idler unit is fitted to later derailleur and hub models. I phoned 5
Incidentally this happened with new chainring, new chain, new cassette and new drive sprocket fitted.

It happened to me when I had my Kalkhoff PCS. The chain wrapped itself around the cage and bent it. I retaliated by bending it back, making sure that it cleared the chain completely when it was mounted, and making sure it was really well tightened up. I also made sure the chain was properly lubed - they seem to be very sensitive to dry running on the Kalkhoff. I've now taken someone's advice on here, D8veh I think, and started using hypoid gear oil on all my chains. It's messier, but chains run much better.

 

[flecc]

This does seem to be a regular problem on the later Panasonic unit and I don't think there is any cure guaranteed for every case. Panasonic and e-bike makers have tried the dual idler system, and on some hub gear models a rear chain-tensioner arm. All I can suggest is to try all the various methods others have used and find what works best in your case, but certainly the chain lubrication, the free rotation of every chain link joint and the free running and alignment of the idler wheel and arm are critically important.

It seems to be the price of efficiency. The other makers of good crank units like Bosch, Daum, Kalkhoff Impulse and Pacific Cycles use the somewhat less efficient drive into the chainwheel so have no separate chain drive sprocket, having none of these problems.
.

 

[quilly21]

Thanks NRG, I have a new 11 tooth sprocket, I will try width reduction to see if this helps, as I say only usually a problem when in heavy rain or puddles, I noticed when I first fitted a new chain at 2500 miles, that the front chain wheel had quite severe peening on the bottom of the gullets to the teeth, constant hammering of the chain, this was causing the chain to hang on to the chain wheel and not release.
I had to file the peened edges of all the teeth to be able to use the new chain, I guess the old one had loosened sufficiently for it to run smoothly, perhaps it is the new chain being tight that was the problem here, although all idlers and chain wheels etc. were new.
My main question here though is,"does anyone have the dual idler tensioner fitted to a derailleur geared bike?"

 

[quilly21]

Thanks Hugh,

The cage is tight and I have straightened and aligned it, it is just a tinny thing and with all the power of the motor easily twisted, my worry is that a bad twist at speed may damage the motor casing where it is mounted.
I will give the gear oil shot although up to now the only lubricant I have found successful is light 3 in one type oil.

I am hoping to buy a bike with the NuVinci drive, gates belt drive would be nice and do away with all this gear and chain problem.
I see you have a Bosch powered bike, How do you find it compares to the Panasonic system?
I see mustache bikes have a Bosch powered bike witha NuVinci gear system, hoping to try it out soon.

 

[quilly21]

Thanks Flecc,
It was on your Panasonic site I saw the picture of the dual idler, but when I phoned 50 Cycles to purchase one Matt told me that it was only fitted to the hub gear model and he had never seen it on a derailleur model. I was concerned that it would fit and really just want confirmation from anyone who has this arragnement on a derailleur system. I have become very aware of the lubrication and alignment, usually using a park tools chain cleaner every week or two at worst and lubricating.
when it is all clean and oiled the system is almost silent, but sadley a large section of my daily commute is along an old railway track cycle lane which is graded gravel and as you can imagine very dusty.
I think more tension would do the trick.

 

[Hugh]

Thanks Hugh,


I see you have a Bosch powered bike, How do you find it compares to the Panasonic system?
I see mustache bikes have a Bosch powered bike witha NuVinci gear system, hoping to try it out soon.

Hi, and sorry to be so slow in response. The Bosch and Panasonic systems are different beasts really. The Panasonic is good on road, as per most Kalkhoff bikes, but doesn't have nearly as much adjustability as the Bosch. I was very happy with my Kalkhoff as a commuting bike, but it was never going to be as good as the Haibike offroad, as it wasn't designed as a full-on MTB. Also, the longer wheelbase, the result of the placing of the battery, means the Kalkhoff frame gives a more relaxed ride on road but is much less nimble than the Haibike.

As far as varieties of Bosch are concerned, I really like the Haibike because of the inverted motor mounting which immediately improves both appearance and ground clearance. The only drawback I've found is that there's no bottle mounts on the full sus Haibike due to rear shock design, but that's easily remedied with a handlebar mounted one. As a bike, it's really well designed and built, with, to my mind, much fewer compromises as a result of the motor etc.

It seems to me to deliver power more effectively than the Panasonic - it's certainly, for me, a better climber.

Good luck!