Panasonic Hub Drive vs BionX and Storck

[Electrifying Cycles]

Our first 47v panasonic hub drive bike has just arrived (ETour). Really impressed with the kit for the money (RRP £2249). This includes lights and rack. However I was just wondering if anyone else had tested these bikes and BionX/Storck over hilly terain. I have ridden a Storck but only on flat terrain so quite hard to compare. Really like the Storck but when I saw the price of the KTM with panasonic kit I thought this would be a good alternative.

I hate to say it but I think I preferred the bike to the Bosch!

Anyone who wants to see the range can find them here
KTM E-Bikes 2013: KTM e-Bikes 2013

(UK RRP list is here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B35vfCMfgy1GOHl5Z1YwekpBN1U/edit?pli=1)

I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I think Eddie tried one but do not think he was a fan of the Storck do probably not best to ask him, if he ever returns.

 

[Tim]

We stocked the Kalkhoff Image B27 in 2011 which was fitted with the 48V BionX HT motor and battery which was a very strong hill-climber in the highest power mode with 1:3 assistance, but the range was very, very poor at that assistance level. You'd be lucky to see more than 10 miles, perhaps because it was only a 6.6Ah battery and the regeneration didn't really help improve on that.

Kalkhoff have since developed their own Xion electric bike system with a German-made rear hub motor, 36V 15.5Ah 558Wh Lithium battery pack, TFT display with USB port and really strong hill-climbing performance and Hill Descent Assist with a speed-regulating regenerative function. They've put it on the Focus Jarifa All Terrain bikes. We'll also have a 24-speed and 27-speed Pro Connects fitted with this system from Spring.





Our test rides on Kalkhoff's own test track last August were really impressive - completely silent, very strong assistance on hills with excellent gearing. So we put in an order...

I've had rides on the Storck but only on absolutely flat terrain, so can't really comment.

It's intriguing how hub motors have come around again.

 

[flecc]

It's intriguing how hub motors have come around again.

Indeed, and surprisingly quickly too. The resurgence of crank drives from zero after Giant discontinued the Lafree in early 2007 looks as though it's already under threat already after just five years during which they looked as though they would become the future of the upper end.

I feel sorry for anyone trying to buy a quality e-bike for the first time now, always confusing, it's now becoming a bit of a nightmare to know what to get.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Have to say I have not ridden BionX. But panasonic had the wow factor to me in a similar way to when I have ridden Bosch crank drives.

 

[carpetbagger]

We stocked the Kalkhoff Image B27 in 2011 which was fitted with the 48V BionX HT motor and battery which was a very strong hill-climber in the highest power mode with 1:3 assistance, but the range was very, very poor at that assistance level. You'd be lucky to see more than 10 miles, perhaps because it was only a 6.6Ah battery and the regeneration didn't really help improve on that.

Kalkhoff have since developed their own Xion electric bike system with a German-made rear hub motor, 36V 15.5Ah 558Wh Lithium battery pack, TFT display with USB port and really strong hill-climbing performance and Hill Descent Assist with a speed-regulating regenerative function. They've put it on the Focus Jarifa All Terrain bikes. We'll also have a 24-speed and 27-speed Pro Connects fitted with this system from Spring.





Our test rides on Kalkhoff's own test track last August were really impressive - completely silent, very strong assistance on hills with excellent gearing. So we put in an order...

I've had rides on the Storck but only on absolutely flat terrain, so can't really comment.

It's intriguing how hub motors have come around again.

Send one over here for a couple of weeks and i will tell you if its any good up the 20% hill that i sometimes ride up....and whether its capable of the 43 mile round trip.

 

[Tim]

I feel sorry for anyone trying to buy a quality e-bike for the first time now, always confusing, it's now becoming a bit of a nightmare to know what to get.

Well, not really, it really is not much of a nightmare if you do your research. It should almost always be a Kalkhoff, given the choice of systems they give even within the brand - the Xion hub motor, three crank drive options (Impulse 36V, Panasonic 26V and Panasonic 36V) and various Bosch options. An awful lot of people are coming to this conclusion every week now.

Kalkhoff are market leader in Germany (and almost certainly in the UK too given the volumes we've seen lately) for good reason. Their experience, production capacity, R&D and testing resources are second to none, with all the economies of scale that brings.

For example, there is no other manufacturer offering the fully automatic i360 NuVinci Harmony CVT system on a centre drive bike with a battery capacity exceeding half a kilowatt hour for less than £2,400 (rather than the near £3,000 I've seen for a certain other ebike with the non-automatic N360 NuVinci set up) but we're offering two models from Kalkhoff with that spec in 2013 and one even comes fitted with a heart monitor that keeps your heart rate constant whatever the terrain by constantly adjusting assistance and gearing throughout your ride. These bikes will be in our showroom with similar models with around a 100 demonstrators right across the UK by Easter.

You could visit one of our showrooms, compare and contrast the systems and pay less than you think because we sell direct to you as importer for Kalkhoff. We've been in this market for 10 years now - we know what we're doing, we're not in it to make a quick buck and our record for bringing innovation to the UK electric bike market is second to none.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Tim,

Have to disagree I have ridden both systems and would say the Bosch is on a par if not better than the Impulse. Both are good systems. By the way what happened to your small dealer network? My advice to anyone would be try both systems and make your mind up. Other bikes are available with NuVincini for a similar price including KTM amongst others.

The problem is as no-one stocks both Bosch and Impulse powered bikes at the same place with a decent test view it is hard to compare (correct me if I am wrong). Would love to see you at Redbridge so that people can compare Bosch to Impulse powered bikes at a good venue. Or perhaps a member would be willing to bring a bike along.

The fun is doing the research!

 

[Tim]

I take it you've not tried an Impulse bike with the updated software then, the difference is dramatic. Pop down to one of our showrooms and we'd be delighted to demonstrate.

Kalkhoff were rather over-cautious with the Impulse system this time last year, until they realised the UK market and terrain are more demanding than that in Lower Saxony. It knocks spots of the Bosch now with significantly more range.

You do know that Kalkhoff have plenty of of Bosch 25 bikes in their line up? We just decided not to take any because of the relatively small battery size (288Wh vs 540Wh) and somewhat lacking performance, especially when you hit the 25kph WALL. That was the reason it took us over 6 months to sell the beautiful Bosch-powered HaiBike eQ FS Enduro we had in the window in our Richmond shop, it was all bark and suddenly no bite and left people less-than-impressed on rides around Richmond Park.

We had a KTM Macina owner come into our Hampton Wick shop last Autumn, looking all forlorn, begging us to sell him a Bosch 45 motor as he was fed up and rather bored with the Bosch 25's performance over 15mph. We couldn't help him, Bosch do not sell it separately. Now I see talk on here of this dongle to break through the speed limiter? It's all very ironic really.

As for our dealer network, we found we were around 10 to 15 times more effective at selling bikes than our dealers. Our demonstration network has worked well before so it wasn't a difficult decision (but a very timely one giving what's happened to Sterling since, we'd much rather keep prices reasonable for customers than send business to bike shops).

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

I take it you've not tried an Impulse bike with the updated software then, the difference is dramatic. Pop down to one of our showrooms and we'd be delighted to demonstrate.

Kalkhoff were rather over-cautious with the Impulse system until they realised the UK market and terrain are more demanding than that in Lower Saxony. It knocks spots of the Bosch now with significantly more range.

You do know that Kalkhoff have plenty of of Bosch 25 bikes in their line up? We just decided not to take any because of the relatively small battery size (288Wh vs 540Wh) and somewhat lacking performance, especially when you hit the 25kph WALL. That was the reason it took us over 6 months to sell the beautiful Bosch-powered HaiBike eQ FS Enduro we had in the window in our Richmond shop, it was all bark and suddenly no bite and left people less-than-impressed on rides around Richmond Park.

We had a KTM owner come in here, looking all forlorn, begging us to sell him a Bosch 45 motor as he was fed up and rather bored with its performance over 15mph. We couldn't help him, Bosch do not sell it in that form. Now I see talk of this dongle to break through that? It's all very ironic really.

As for our dealer network, we found we were around 10 to 15 times more effective at selling bikes than our dealers. Our demonstration network has worked well before so it wasn't a difficult decision (but a very timely giving what's happened to Sterling since).

Tim
I was referring to Impulse drive bikes which you sell hence why I said that rather than Kalkhoff to avoid confusion with any Bosch powered bikes which Kalkhoff do.
You are referring to old 2012 specification batteries for Bosch are now 300 or 400wh. Tim you have a Bosch speed pedelec bike on your website with a 45km limit! Also all standard pedelecs including impulse have a 25km assistance limit so both bikes will hit a brick wall. If you are that confident send me a bike to test so I can compare it to a Bosch, it is easy to say one beats the other but impossible to prove without testing both bikes. Happy for someone independant to compare them both, maybe Dave from Kudos if he was up for it?

In fairness to the dealers if you have one/two brands rather than several then customers may choose different bikes rather than Kalkhoff.

At the end of the day I am yet to be convinced the Impulse system is better.

 

[carpetbagger]

Tim
I was referring to Impulse drive hence why I said that rather than Kalkhoff.
You are referring to old 2012 specification batteries for Bosch are now 300 or 400wh. Tim you have a Bosch speed pedelec bike on your website with a 45km limit! Also all standard pedelecs including impulse have a 25km assistance limit so both bikes will hit a brick wall. If you are that confident send me a bike to test so I can compare it to a Bosch, it is easy to say one beats the other but impossible to prove without testing both bikes. Happy for someone independant to compare them both, maybe Dave from Kudos if he was up for it?

In fairness to the dealers if you have one/two brands rather than several then customers may choose different bikes rather than Kalkhoff.

At the end of the day I am yet to be convinced the Impulse system is better.

Better still, both send one to me and i will test them both riding up hills that people really need them for. Then you will get a fair,independent review. I have two weeks leave from pm 8/03/13 so i could have a decent play !

 

[flecc]

Tim
I was referring to Impulse drive hence why I said that rather than Kalkhoff.

The Impulse drive unit is always a Kalkhoff system. The earlier units had a power limitation step, presumably for range conservation reasons, which made climbing longer steep hills tiring for the rider. The software change for 2013 removes that problem, making for much better climb performance in very hilly areas.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

The Impulse drive unit is always a Kalkhoff system. The earlier units had a power limitation step, presumably for range conservation reasons, which made climbing longer steep hills tiring for the rider. The software change for 2013 removes that problem, making for much better climb performance in very hilly areas.

Flecc I knew this was the case but stated Impulse as Kalkhoff has some Bosch models so was trying to avoid confusion, though ironically ended in confusion
I am aware of software update which was not present for Gadget Show program.

As I said I always try and answer honestly which was why I said I thought the Bosch was better. But did not make any marketing claims 'like it was miles better or words to that affect.'

 

[Storcker]

Our first 47v panasonic hub drive bike has just arrived (ETour). Really impressed with the kit for the money (RRP £2249). This includes lights and rack. However I was just wondering if anyone else had tested these bikes and BionX/Storck over hilly terain. I have ridden a Storck but only on flat terrain so quite hard to compare. Really like the Storck but when I saw the price of the KTM with panasonic kit I thought this would be a good alternative.

As others have said it is next to impossible to get a test ride at one location of all the different bikes for any given price range. I chose the Storck over the Kalkhoff for its more sporty riding position and loved its frame finish.
But that choice does not mean that a Kalkhoff or Haibike would have been a worse purchase or indeed other bikes I did not bother considering. E bikes are just like all other consumer choices you pays your money and takes what you fancy, right and wrong do not come into it.
As to any bikes hill climbing ability?
I expect unless there is an independent testing service set up there will never be a conclusive answer as there are many differing riders and just as many different hills.
I love reading the tests on electric bike.com where Americans bemoan anything with less than 750 watts available and go on about our European nanny state restricting our rights to 250 watts.
I'm sure that if this was a fishing forum we would all be arguing about the performance of various reels or such.

 

[Spinalot]

I do not like bun fights, all I know is that today I went out for a ride out on the edge of Sheffield (peak district) and went up several 25% hills in 4th gear on my Kalkhoff with so much ease it made me laugh out loud. How this would compare with the Bosch system I cannot say because the cycle show "hill" and test track is so pityfull. I went the year before last and left my feedback about how rubbish the test area for ebikes was. This year they added a "hill" (some bits of wood made into a ramp) right slap in the middle of the already too small track. Truly a shame.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The Presteign show used to be good for these sort of tests. You road out of the test area, about 1/4 mile along a straight flat road for speed test and then turned off and up a gradually steepening hill, which ended up quite steep, so you could do a back to back comparison. It was there that I rode both the Storck and the Bosch Haibike when they first came out. The Bosch annihilated everything in sight then, but that was before the Impulse drive, 36v Panasonic and the newer more powerful hub-motors. It would be nice to do the same again on these new ones.

The Bristol show's not so bad either - out of the show and straight up Park Street. That's where I tried the BH Emotion Neo against Bosch and Panasonic. The Neo won, but not by so much. When you weigh 100kg or more plus heavy clothes, you can see the difference in climbing ability much more than a light person, and, of course, it's much more important to you. That's why my main bike has the Bafang CST 500w version. Most other bikes feel weak by comparison, although mysteriously they seem to be catching up.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

I was just interested to hear peoples opinions on the three systems orginally stated. Mainly due to there not be an event where I could test all three over hilly terrain. I am a fan of the Storck but as mentioned have not had the pleasure of testing outside of flat ground. Before the thread got hijacked. I simply wanted to hear what people's impressions of those three systems were and if anyone had tested them in comparable conditions. I was not trying to create a thread Bosch vs Impulse crank drive systems.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The Redbridge cycling circuit,April 7

The Presteign show used to be good for these sort of tests. You road out of the test area, about 1/4 mile along a straight flat road for speed test and then turned off and up a gradually steepening hill, which ended up quite steep, so you could do a back to back comparison. It was there that I rode both the Storck and the Bosch Haibike when they first came out. The Bosch annihilated everything in sight then, but that was before the Impulse drive, 36v Panasonic and the newer more powerful hub-motors. It would be nice to do the same again on these new ones.

The Bristol show's not so bad either - out of the show and straight up Park Street. That's where I tried the BH Emotion Neo against Bosch and Panasonic. The Neo won, but not by so much. When you weigh 100kg or more plus heavy clothes, you can see the difference in climbing ability much more than a light person, and, of course, it's much more important to you. That's why my main bike has the Bafang CST 500w version. Most other bikes feel weak by comparison, although mysteriously they seem to be catching up.

Dave,the Redbridge Cycling Circuit is by far the best test track for bicycles,it was purpose built for that task. I have ridden at the Presteigne event,the track at Eurobike,the poor short track at the NEC and the longer inside track at London Excell. I know you will be impressed,it is perfect for the task.
It is just so difficult to find similar venues elsewhere in the UK....I think the Manifold Trail in the Peak District can be made to work,the climbs away from the Manifold Valley up to the villages will be a good climbing test. The Hambleton Peninsula event will be very social,the Finch's Arms is a lovely Pub and the local ebike dealer(Fosse electric bikes) is very enthusiastic. I have commited us to doing the Eden Project event,it will be nice to visit the West Country and JackHandy is helping out,the organisers are keen and are trying to organise a test hill.
But I must say, despite asking many times on this forum I cannot find a suitable venue in the Manchester>Leeds area. There are some new cycling circuits at Tameside near Manchester and at Middlesbrough,but they are short and no hills.
PLEASE EVERYONE,TRY TO THINK OF A CIRCUIT IN THE MANCHESTER AREA,WITH A HILL-AROUND A RESERVOIR? IN A COUNTRY PARK? IN A HOTEL OR CASTLE GROUNDS?,ALL IDEAS CONSIDERED.
Thanks
KudosDave