Panasonic Li-ion Battery Charger Issues

[tillson]

My Pro Connect was new in July 2008. When I arrived home I put the battery on charge and it charged without a problem. I then rode the bike until the battery was exhausted. The charger would not then re-charge the battery. Upon placing the battery on the charger, none of the lights on the battery illuminated.

After lots of un-plugging, moving to different sockets and lifting the battery on and off the charger it eventually started to charge. I had done nothing meaningful to make this happen.

After the second discharge exactly the same thing happened as above. And again after repeated meaningless actions, eventually the battery started to charge. This pattern continued until I could stand it no longer. 50 Cycles swapped the charger without hesitation.

Charger number two has worked perfectly since July and still is working well in terms of it actually putting a charge into the battery when I want it to.

Lloyd from 50 Cycles contacted me just over a week ago and said that he wanted to replace charger number 2 because it didn’t have a Euro Plug on it. This is one avenue they are exploring in relation to my battery problems.

Charger number three has arrived and it is just the same as the first one that I had. My battery is sat on it now and nothing is happening. I suspect that if I go and change my socks for blue ones and put on a string vest or carry out some other non-sense procedure it will start to charge the battery.

I think that I have mentioned this before, but if I can once get the battery to start charging, I can take it of the charger switch everything off, move it to another part of the country and it will always, without exception, resume the charge cycle. But once the battery has been subjected to anything like a reasonable discharge, and by this I mean over 30% discharged I have hells own job charging it again.

I spoke to Scott at 50C yesterday and he has agreed to swap it for charger number 4 on Monday if I am still having problems, so I am not worried in that respect. He did suggest that it might be my electricity at one stage! I have tried the on various independent supplies and the same thing applies, so it isn’t that. Another suggestion by Scott was that a power surge on my supply may have damaged the charger. But again, I have a computer surge protector in my garage that has other sensitive instrumentation plugged into it and this has always been feeding my battery chargers. Everything else on that feed is working fine, so again I can’t see this being the problem.

I must say that the part of the conversation that I refer to above did leave me feeling a little un-easy for a while, but I’ll just put it down to exploring all the possibilities in order to render assistance on this occasion. I take great care with all of my possessions and my Pro C although used daily since July and having covered nearly 1700 miles is like new and meticulously maintained.

Has anyone else experienced anything like?


UPDATE

The battery is now charging. I don’t know what I have done, but I have placed the battery on the charger for the n+1 th time and it is now working. Bizarre.

 

[flecc]

Normally such intermittent behaviour is often down to a poor and intermittent connection, on most bikes ruled out if they run ok on a charged battery, proving the two connections are ok.

However, I think the Panasonic five position connector system uses different sets of connections during charging and running, so it occurs to me that one connector used only during charging could be intermittent. You can easily clean the bike connection blades and have probably done so, but perhaps one of the battery's recessed blade sockets is soiled. Maybe you can devise a thin pad to clean those with some solvent if the trouble restarts?
.

 

[Fecn]

If only the chargers have been replaced so far, I'd be inclined to suspect the battery management system (BMS) within the battery pack itself. Either that or a loose wire to the Charge+ pin on the pack.

 

[tillson]

Normally such intermittent behaviour is often down to a poor and intermittent connection, on most bikes ruled out if they run ok on a charged battery, proving the two connections are ok.

However, I think the Panasonic five position connector system uses different sets of connections during charging and running, so it occurs to me that one connector used only during charging could be intermittent. You can easily clean the bike connection blades and have probably done so, but perhaps one of the battery's recessed blade sockets is soiled. Maybe you can devise a thin pad to clean those with some solvent if the trouble restarts?
.

Thanks for the suggestions flecc. The battery is new and has hardly been used. It's my latest replacement. From a visual inspection there does not appear to be any dirt ingress and I am reluctant to poke around in the sockets at this stage due to the ongoing problems that I have. I don't want to run any risk of any suggestion of tampering.

I tried the battery for a brief moment on charger number two which I still have in my possession and it started to charge straight away on that charger. Nothing happened when I put the battery back onto charger number three though. I am reluctant to charge it with charger number two because of the potential fault which may be causing the battery failures.

As I have previously stated, charger number 2 has always been 100% reliable. It is all highly frustrating.

 

[tillson]

If only the chargers have been replaced so far, I'd be inclined to suspect the battery management system (BMS) within the battery pack itself. Either that or a loose wire to the Charge+ pin on the pack.

I wish it was that simple. I am on my third battery. Batteries 1 and 2 always charged perfectly well on charger number 2. And battery 3 seems to charge on charger 2, but I don't want to use it because I am told that one may have a fault which is damaging my batteries.

It is my latest, third charger, that is causing me all the problems. It behaves in exactly the same way as the first charger and I am wondering if anyone else has has experienced this intermittent charging behaviour.

 

[Fecn]

I don't suppose you have light-bulbs regularly blow in your house do you? Given the number of battery and charger combinations you have been through, and the fact that the non-euro-plug one is 100% reliable, I am wondering if perhaps your mains supply is out of spec. In the last house I lived in the mains voltages could reach 258 volts at times, and in the end I got the leccy board to lower the voltages a bit. The UK spec says we should get 216.2-252 volts (230V -6%/+10%). I am wondering if perhaps the chargers are seeing an out-of-spec supply the switchmode supplies within them are shutting themselves down as a safety measure. This explanation would also fit with the non-euro-plug version being reliable as it could possibly have different components inside. The bottom of the charger says it runs on 100-230V, so if you have a particularly high supply voltage it might be an issue... Having said all of that, the voltage in my current house regularly reaches 250V and I've had no problems with my charger.

 

[tillson]

I don't suppose you have light-bulbs regularly blow in your house do you? Given the number of battery and charger combinations you have been through, and the fact that the non-euro-plug one is 100% reliable, I am wondering if perhaps your mains supply is out of spec. In the last house I lived in the mains voltages could reach 258 volts at times, and in the end I got the leccy board to lower the voltages a bit. The UK spec says we should get 216.2-252 volts (230V -6%/+10%). I am wondering if perhaps the chargers are seeing an out-of-spec supply the switchmode supplies within them are shutting themselves down as a safety measure. This explanation would also fit with the non-euro-plug version being reliable as it could possibly have different components inside. The bottom of the charger says it runs on 100-230V, so if you have a particularly high supply voltage it might be an issue... Having said all of that, the voltage in my current house regularly reaches 250V and I've had no problems with my charger.

I have lived in he house for 14 years and haven't had any problems with other electrical equipment and I don't think that I have a high rate of light bulb failures. I also have sensitive electronic equipment plugged in (aircraft transponder, radios, instrumentaion packs and met equipment) all of this works perfectly well and has never suffered a failure. My garage has a totally independent supply to the house with its own meter and consumer unit and this latest charger is giving me problems in both locations. This morning, I have brought the charger into work with me and it isn't working here. So I have now tried it on three totally independent supplies and I am experiencing the same problems.

I've not done anything other than use the equipment (battery and charger) to the letter of the instructions. Very annoying and frustrating I can tell you!

 

[Blew it]

What I can't understand is, why is this not being dealt with by an electrical engineer. Surely in this modern day and age, the "suck it 'n' see" method of resolving problems shouldn't be used.

Judging from previous posts by Lloyd, he is highly knowledgeable in the nuts and bolts of bike mechanics. I'm sure he is experiencing the same frustrations in failing to nail this problem down.

Surely there must be dozens of qualified electrical engineers sculling around in Loughborough who could be called upon to act as consultants when this type of fault occurs.

I hope it's all sorted out soon

Regards

Bob

 

[JamesC]

It is my latest, third charger, that is causing me all the problems. It behaves in exactly the same way as the first charger and I am wondering if anyone else has has experienced this intermittent charging behaviour.

As yet, I have not experienced any charging problems with the 2 batteries and 2 chargers that I bought in June.

One basic question that I have been meaning to ask forum members is this:

My charging technique is to place the battery on the charger, then switch on the charger at the mains switch (there is no on/off switch on the charger itself). Similarly, at the end of the charge, I switch off at the mains, then remove the battery from the charger.

However, I notice on the 50cycles video that the charger is already ON when the battery is placed in the cradle, and the charger is possibly left ON when the battery is removed on completion.

Is there any technical reason for choosing one method vs the other ?
I can imagine that the charger electronics would not benefit from being left ON indefinitely, but I am not sure if there is a greater surge imposed by plugging an empty battery onto a prepowered charger.


Certainly with my ezee bike, I have always plugged the Li-ion battery in to the charger before turning the charger ON, believing that there is an exchange of information between battery and charger during the "boot up" of the charger.

Perhaps this was only relevant with the earlier NiMH batteries which required the connection of the battery temperature sensor on the third pin of the plug before charging commenced ?

James

 

[tillson]

However, I notice on the 50cycles video that the charger is already ON when the battery is placed in the cradle, and the charger is possibly left ON when the battery is removed on completion.
James

I too had noticed this. I normally turn the charger off after the charging phase has completed. Having managed to get the charger to work last night, I left the battery on charge overnight. This morning I removed the battery and have left the charger switched on to. We'll see what happens when I get home in about two hours time.

 

[flecc]

I've used both eZee and Panasonic batteries in both NiMh and Lithium varieties over years with most types, and have used both plugging/switch-on methods without any problems. There's never been any differences in the charge, and in the case of the eZee and Panasonic NiMh batteries that's been with two different makes of chargers for each.
.

 

[tillson]

This morning I removed the battery and have left the charger switched on. We'll see what happens when I get home in about two hours time.

My wife had had switched it off! Grrrr!

However, she hadn't pulled the plug out. So I switched on, put the battery on the charger and it has worked first time.

I will monitor the situation but I think I have just been lucky tonight. At least I will be able to use the bike in the morning.

 

[tillson]

I think that I have isolated this problem to the plug. I have been using the charger all week and have been switching it off but not removing the plug from the socket. It hasn't let me down once using this method.

However, this morning I have pulled the plug out and plugged it back in again and now the charger isn't working. I'm sure that if I push the plug in and out of the socket it enough times it will start to work again.

I am reluctant to open the plug up as it appears to have a tamper proof screw in it and given my battery problems, I want to keep everything totally standard and untouched by the consumers hand! Especially as a possible source of the battery problems is the plug.

I have spoken to 50C and as ever, they have offered to swap it for a new one if I want, or they are happy for me to continue with this one. I have decided not to take them up on their offer at this time as I can live with it if it is reliable. So I think that I will get it working in one particular socket and leave it plugged in.

 

[Fecn]

The tamperproof screw in there is one of the comedy/joke variety which you can just remove with a normal flat-bladed screwdriver by keeping the pressure on. Inside the plug/adaptor it's just a standard European 2-pin plug.

I don't understand why the adaptor has a tamperproof screw as you'd want to remove the adaptor is you ever took the bike across the channel anyway. It seems very silly to have tamperproof plug on a 'world charger' that can run on the power systems in any country in the world.

 

[tillson]

The tamperproof screw in there is one of the comedy/joke variety which you can just remove with a normal flat-bladed screwdriver by keeping the pressure on. Inside the plug/adaptor it's just a standard European 2-pin plug.

I don't understand why the adaptor has a tamperproof screw as you'd want to remove the adaptor is you ever took the bike across the channel anyway. It seems very silly to have tamperproof plug on a 'world charger' that can run on the power systems in any country in the world.

A very good point!

 

[WALKERMAN]

I got my ProConnect last July and have had battery / charger problems with it sometimes not starting to charge.

I have posted on this site previously about it.

To get the charger to work I just unscrew the plug cover and wiggle the fuse and 2 pin plug and screw the cover back. It works after that. At first I replaced the fuse but I have now discounted that as the problem.

It would seem to be a poor connection in either the plug or the adaptor.

I will replace the plug eventually but was advised on this site to seek the advice of 50Cycles which I haven't yet done.