"Police stat shows that 260 electric powered bicycles were seized by officers last year"

guerney

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georgehenry

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I am reminded why I try never to read The Daily Mail. That was inaccurate click bait. The most telling statistic missing was the total number of people who had been killed by being hit by a bicycle. flecc will probably know.
 

Az.

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I say the motor is an irrelevance to the degree of injury,
Depends what you mean by that. Motor/controller/battery directly affect speed and acceleration. Speed and acceleration affect risk of accident and risk of injury.

That's why I don't do it. Whether a bike cuts off at 15.6 miles an hour or 20 miles an hour is an irrelevance, though it probably requires twice the motor power to accomplish that 5 mile an hour difference.
No Tony. When it comes to risk of injury, there is a massive difference between 15 mph and 20mph.
All comes down to energy.
As far as I remember to calculate impact energy you multiply mass by impact velocity squared and then divide by two, so even small increase in speed dramatically increase impact energy.
 
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Tony1951

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Until about a year ago, as far as I know, only two people in about four years had been killed by cyclists. The cases were truly appalling cases of atrocious riding. Whatever the number, two, three, whatever - it is too many and almost for sure, due to truly dreadful, irresponsible riding.
Depends what you mean by that. Motor/controller/battery directly affect speed and acceleration. Speed and acceleration affect risk of accident and risk of injury.



No Tony. When it comes to risk of injury, there is a massive difference between 15 mph and 20mph.
All comes down to energy.
As far as I remember to calculate impact energy you multiply mass by impact velocity squared and then divide by two, so even small increase in speed dramatically increase impact energy.
Interesting.

I am well aware of the way energy increases at the square of the speed of a moving body, so it is technically correct that faster means more damage in a collision though on the question of how 'massive' that difference is between 15 and 20 miles an hour, I think you are being hyperbolic. At 15 miles an hour the KE in joules of an 80 kilo bike and man is 0.000694 Joules. Five miles an hour faster it is 0.00123 Joules, under twice the lower speed amount. Massive? I don't know.

However, you ignore my main point which is that the risk of collision is MUCH more a matter of manner of riding than it is of a mere 5 miles an hour of increased velocity.

I ride about 5000 to 6000 miles a year on motorcycles ranging in power between 20hp (15kw power output and 140 kilos dry weight) and 47hp (35kw and 210 kilos dry weight) and I have been riding continually those kinds of distances and power levels for over fifty years. I have not had an accident on my by comparison VERY powerful and weighty machines since about 1970 when I fell off an ancient bsa on a roundabout covered in diesel oil. In all of my driving (add on about 8000 miles a year these days of car driving and in the past that figure was about 15000 miles for about forty years) I have never harmed another person.

Why is this? Well, aside from good luck, I consistently drive and ride with caution and consideration. THIS IS THE KEY FACTOR in safety, though some here are VERY hung up on technical regulations and laws - regulations and laws which any sane person can see are made by half witted PPE graduates, pensioned off lawyers and greasy pole climbers in an utterly dysfunctional parliament and civil service. Yes Stuart, I despise our law making body and its members. What have they got right? Point to ANY feature of government that works or is performing well. I say this as a man of 73 years old who last had a driving penalty in 1971, rightly imposed for exceeding a 30 miles an hour speed limit by a small margin, so I am no wholesale law breaker and criminal. Nonetheless, I laugh at the idea that a throttle which will propel a pedelec at 16 miles an hour is a menace to society and that we must all kowtow to the stupid rule that we must not have one, on pain of court penalties and confiscation. It's a joke. 1.3% of pedestrians injured in ten years between 2005 and 2010 were injured by anyone on a bicycle while 98.7% were injured by a motor vehicle. The numbers of pedestrians (regrettably) killed, amount to about 2 to 3 a year over a long period. These are usually caused by grotesquely bad riding and are exceptional rather than the norm. The courts take a very serious approach to these in contrast to the usually weak penalties imposed on drivers who are generally charged with careless driving rather than dangerous driving.

The menace to society is that man or boy (and it is almost always men and boys) who rides like an a-hole on pavements or with grotesque stupidity on the roads. Pedants and nitpicking sheep may disagree. That is their prerogative. The English disease is to legislate against the freedom of all to curtail the insane behaviour of a few morons. I detest it. Meanwhile, an average of two cyclists are killed each week and 67 are seriously injured by motor vehicles.

.

 
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Az.

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Until about a year ago, as far as I know, only two people in about four years had been killed by cyclists.
Risk of hitting pedestrian is relatively low. Speed and increased bike weight (e-bikes can be easily 3 or 4 times heavier than non electric bikes ) mainly affect risk of injury to cyclists.

Massive? I don't know.
OK... another example, this time when impact energy is directly reflected to cyclists.

Imagine hitting wall at 2mph... 5mph... 20mph...25mph...100mph

However, you ignore my main point which is that the risk of collision is MUCH more a matter of manner of riding than it is of a mere 5 miles an hour of increased velocity.


I just reacted to a minor thing in your post. I totally agree with the rest what you wrote. It is a mixture of speed and stupidity which is most dangerous. After all children survive all falls on balance bikes.

I have not had an accident on my by comparison VERY powerful and weighty machines
and I hope it will stay that way. Unfortunately ALL bikers I knew had serious accidents or... are dead.
:(
 

Woosh

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Until about a year ago, as far as I know, only two people in about four years had been killed by cyclists. The cases were truly appalling cases of atrocious riding. Whatever the number, two, three, whatever - it is too many and almost for sure, due to truly dreadful, irresponsible riding.

Interesting.

I am well aware of the way energy increases at the square of the speed of a moving body, so it is technically correct that faster means more damage in a collision though on the question of how 'massive' that difference is between 15 and 20 miles an hour, I think you are being hyperbolic. At 15 miles an hour the KE in joules of an 80 kilo bike and man is 0.000694 Joules. Five miles an hour faster it is 0.00123 Joules, under twice the lower speed amount. Massive? I don't know.

However, you ignore my main point which is that the risk of collision is MUCH more a matter of manner of riding than it is of a mere 5 miles an hour of increased velocity.

I ride about 5000 to 6000 miles a year on motorcycles ranging in power between 20hp (15kw power output and 140 kilos dry weight) and 47hp (35kw and 210 kilos dry weight) and I have been riding continually those kinds of distances and power levels for over fifty years. I have not had an accident on my by comparison VERY powerful and weighty machines since about 1970 when I fell off an ancient bsa on a roundabout covered in diesel oil. In all of my driving (add on about 8000 miles a year these days of car driving and in the past that figure was about 15000 miles for about forty years) I have never harmed another person.

Why is this? Well, aside from good luck, I consistently drive and ride with caution and consideration. THIS IS THE KEY FACTOR in safety, though some here are VERY hung up on technical regulations and laws - regulations and laws which any sane person can see are made by half witted PPE graduates, pensioned off lawyers and greasy pole climbers in an utterly dysfunctional parliament and civil service. Yes Stuart, I despise our law making body and its members. What have they got right? Point to ANY feature of government that works or is performing well. I say this as a man of 73 years old who last had a driving penalty in 1971, rightly imposed for exceeding a 30 miles an hour speed limit by a small margin, so I am no wholesale law breaker and criminal. Nonetheless, I laugh at the idea that a throttle which will propel a pedelec at 16 miles an hour is a menace to society and that we must all kowtow to the stupid rule that we must not have one, on pain of court penalties and confiscation. It's a joke. 1.3% of pedestrians injured in ten years between 2005 and 2010 were injured by anyone on a bicycle while 98.7% were injured by a motor vehicle. The numbers of pedestrians (regrettably) killed, amount to about 2 to 3 a year over a long period. These are usually caused by grotesquely bad riding and are exceptional rather than the norm. The courts take a very serious approach to these in contrast to the usually weak penalties imposed on drivers who are generally charged with careless driving rather than dangerous driving.

The menace to society is that man or boy (and it is almost always men and boys) who rides like an a-hole on pavements or with grotesque stupidity on the roads. Pedants and nitpicking sheep may disagree. That is their prerogative. The English disease is to legislate against the freedom of all to curtail the insane behaviour of a few morons. I detest it. Meanwhile, an average of two cyclists are killed each week and 67 are seriously injured by motor vehicles.

.

Kinetic energy in SI is measured in joules, but you need to convert speed into SI m/s before calculations. 15mph = 25km/h = 6.94m/s
 

saneagle

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There were 32 pedestrians killed by cyclists between 2010 and 2015, which is about 3 per year. The only other data I can find is that there were zero in 2022, though the tegraph argued that there was one. .

I can't find any evidence that the rise in illegal electric bikes has any effect on pedestrian deaths If anybody want's to get to the nitty gritty, analyse this, otherwise we have to assume that the idea of illegal bikes killing pedestrians all over the place and getting worse is just a figment of people's imagination.
 
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lenny

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"Second man in court accused of murdering cyclist on Valentine's Day"









 

AGS

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Feb 12, 2023
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These things are awesome, but I would kill myself on one of them.

 

guerney

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Sep 7, 2021
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These things are awesome, but I would kill myself on one of them.

Could it balance if the rider was wearing a mostly enclosed coffin shaped roll-cage, with a small windscreen cut into it? They'd only need to nail in one side at burial time, save time and money.
 

StuartsProjects

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May 9, 2021
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[/QUOTE]
Incorrect, a ministerial permission is operationally law
So what are the limitations of ministers deciding on a whim to change the law, could they ?

Increase the legal speed limit of a pedelec ?

Increase the power limit of a pedelec ?

Permit parties in lockdown in 10 Downing street ?
 

Chainmale

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May 13, 2020
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A ministerial permission doesn't change the law as such but basically gives permission to ignore said law as it will no longer be effectively enforced.
It could be argued that it represents ministers considering themselves to be above the law.
 
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Tony1951

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Mar 27, 2016
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There were 32 pedestrians killed by cyclists between 2010 and 2015, which is about 3 per year. The only other data I can find is that there were zero in 2022, though the tegraph argued that there was one. .

I can't find any evidence that the rise in illegal electric bikes has any effect on pedestrian deaths If anybody want's to get to the nitty gritty, analyse this, otherwise we have to assume that the idea of illegal bikes killing pedestrians all over the place and getting worse is just a figment of people's imagination.
Well said.
 

Tony1951

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A ministerial permission doesn't change the law as such but basically gives permission to ignore said law as it will no longer be effectively enforced.
It could be argued that it represents ministers considering themselves to be above the law.
I'm not sure about this. It was my impression that certain laws could be changed by something called a statutory instrument, which basically means that a minister can write a statement changing a regulation.It is my belief that laws which can be changed like that need to have a clause which says a minister can do this. They are also brought before a committee of the House of Commons and rubber stamped by other MPs. I am not sure that is the same thing as a minister just making an announcement of his opinion in an interview. For example, the buffoon Michael Gove during the pandemic announced in an interview that twenty minutes exercise was and ought to be enough for anyone and appeared to suggest that this ought to be guidance for the police in dealing with people found to be exercising outside their houses for longer periods. I immediately made sure that i doubled my daily walking to two to three hours in response. He had no business attempting to impose his personal views on an entirely beneficial activity. People did not catch covid-19 outside while exercising away from other people. They caught it in crowds - mostly indoors in places like pubs and on busses, trains and planes, or in shops.

Statutory Instruments:
 
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Tony1951

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Kinetic energy in SI is measured in joules, but you need to convert speed into SI m/s before calculations. 15mph = 25km/h = 6.94m/s
The calculation I presented in the post used a kinetic energy calculator which allows inputs in various forms such as mph/kph. meters per second. I expect that it converts the inputs in whatever way is needed to create the outputs. The output it gave for 15 and 20 miles an hour were in line with what I expected by estimate, namely that the energy of the stated mass pretty much doubles as the speed increases from 15mph to 20mph.

Of course the fact that any young fellow can ride an ordinary bicycle at 25 mph for a while at least on the flat simply destroys the argument that electric bikes travelling at a bit of 15 miles an hour are a menace by definition. They can be of course if ridden at pretty much any speed in the hands of an inconsiderate idiot.

Also someone made the point that the extra weight makes them lethal...... Really? What about fat people on bikes? My Bafang 250 watt motor and 14 Ahr , 36 volt battery doesn't weigh a huge amount. It is way less than the difference between me at a bit over 12 stone and one of my sons who is about 19 stone.
 

Tony1951

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and I hope it will stay that way. Unfortunately ALL bikers I knew had serious accidents or... are dead.
:(
Two pals of mine were killed by extreme examples of bad driving by car drivers. One was run over on a roundabout by a woman in a huge SUV and the other had a farmer turn right across his path on a B road. The commonest cause of death in motor cycling in that drivers pull into the path of a lawfully preceding rider when there is no time to avoid the collision because they just pull out without looking. It happens to cyclists too. I don't know any long term biker who has not had a close shave of this sort. My policy in trying to avoid this is to confine my riding these days to small country roads, wearing a very bright yellow over jacket, always using headlights and to keep my speed down. I prefer dawdling along at 40 to 50 miles an hour on backroads and I watch side turnings like a hawk and sound my horn if I see a vehicle coming out of an entrance or looking like it might do. If I am in any doubt that the driver might not have seen me, I slow right down until I am sure he isn't going to shoot out and collide with me.

It isn't the motor cycle that is the danger - it is inconsiderate and outright dangerous careless driving of other motor vehicles.

That said, I have seen motor cycles on the road travelling at about 150 miles an hour.