Powered pedal cycle in collision

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,208
8
Crowborough
Very interesting. See this article in today's Motorcycle News for an overview of the latest helmet technology. Navigate to page 15 and zoom in on the text.
That just looks like an ad for Arai. There is much more to helmet design and different helmets are suitable for different purposes, just as different standard vary. BS, EU and Snell testing all tests for different things and you need to understand what is being tested to make a good choice. For example Snell test helmets for optimal performance at high speed, this mean that you are more likely to live from a high speed impact but also more like to suffer brain damage at lower speeds. If you ride a moped then a Snell rated helmet may not be the wisest choice.
Pushbike helmets vary in a similar way but here the vents cause the problem, in order to have extreme venting the remaining foam must be stiffer to compensate and doesn't work as well as a helmet with normal vents. Unfortunately there is little in the way of facts available about helmets and it is not easy to make an educated choice. A major problem with all helmets is the straps, they are fitted badly and come off making them useless. If you are going to wear one then do it properly.
BTW I'm indifferent about helmets, sometimes do and sometimes don't but I will defend the right to choose.
 
Last edited:

Phil the drill

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 14, 2008
395
6
TR9
That just looks like an ad for Arai. There is much more to helmet design and different helmets are suitable for different purposes, just as different standard vary. BS, EU and Snell testing all tests for different things and you need to understand what is being tested to make a good choice. For example Snell test helmets for optimal performance at high speed, this mean that you are more likely to live from a high speed impact but also more like to suffer brain damage at lower speeds. If you ride a moped then a Snell rated helmet may not be the wisest choice.
Pushbike helmets vary in a similar way but here the vents cause the problem, in order to have extreme venting the remaining foam must be stiffer to compensate and doesn't work as well as a helmet with normal vents. Unfortunately there is little in the way of facts available about helmets and it is not easy to make an educated choice. A major problem with all helmets is the straps, they are fitted badly and come off making them useless. If you are going to wear one then do it properly.
BTW I'm indifferent about helmets, sometimes do and sometimes don't but I will defend the right to choose.
Quite right too! I occaisionally wear a helmet, but usual just to clamp the hood in place on my anorak when its raining!!!
 

john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
At first sight these figures look damning, but I think that they cannot be interpreted quite as easily as they may at first appear:-
OK, here are some CO2 figures for the world in 2002:

Road transport - 4,286 MMT (17.5% of total)
Industry - 4,323 MMT

Old vehicles need to be disposed of, there is an emissions cost with this too...unless they are just 'dumped'
Actually, disposing of a car saves emissions (as far as steel is concerned) because it takes less energy to make a car from scrap steel than from iron ore.

When the car is manufactured, it still has an energy cost. It may be say 15-20% more efficient than it's predecessor, but what you have to do is enough miles to allow that DIFFERENCE to make up the total production and manufacture emissions, and disposal of the old vehicle. I dare to suggest that in most cases that is one hell of a lot more miles than most of us will ever do in our cars.......
Scrapping a car and replacing it with one which is 15% more efficient is probably a toss up, typical figures for embodied energy being around 15% (although accurate figures don't seem to be available at present).

Selling a car and replacing it with a more efficient one is a more tricky decision I would say. It is hard to know how this would affect overall emissions. If you buy the most efficient car (say a Prius) it may be that one more Prius is produced and one less 'typical' car is produced.
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
I work in the fleet industry, and our figures from the manufacturers advise us that production CO2 emmissions per vehicles are very low indeed. In most cases accounting for only 15Kg to 50Kg of CO2 produced per vehicle produced, and as every gallon of petrol has 8.75Kg of CO2 in, thats only about 6 gallons.

The vast vast majority of the CO2 produced by the car industry is during the cars life. This is why so many corporate fleet managers are only looking at the on road CO2 emmisions.

There is quite a lot of info on the web on this too.

John
 

john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
I work in the fleet industry, and our figures from the manufacturers advise us that production CO2 emmissions per vehicles are very low indeed. In most cases accounting for only 15Kg to 50Kg of CO2 produced per vehicle produced, and as every gallon of petrol has 8.75Kg of CO2 in, thats only about 6 gallons.

The vast vast majority of the CO2 produced by the car industry is during the cars life. This is why so many corporate fleet managers are only looking at the on road CO2 emmisions.

There is quite a lot of info on the web on this too.

John
You are joking of course!?

Making 10Kg of aluminium from bauxite releases around 65kg of CO2. The figures you've been given are not even enough to make the wheels!

(OK, the electricity may have come from hydro, but you get my point)
 

Phil the drill

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 14, 2008
395
6
TR9
OK, here are some CO2 figures for the world in 2002:

Road transport - 4,286 MMT (17.5% of total)
Industry - 4,323 MMT
I take your point John, but I wonder if we have any idea how much of the road transport output is actually related to industrial and trade movements, as opposed to that purely for the private individual?

Phil
 

Phil the drill

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 14, 2008
395
6
TR9
I dont mind wearing a helmet as I enjoy cycling and part of that enjoyment is staying safe and visible so that those pesky car drivers leave me alone..:D

My cycle helmet is white, red and silver, plus i wear a high vis jacket.

I guess if you wanted wear a helmet and still look cool you could try one of these

http://www.uberreview.com/wp-content/uploads/600_skull_helmet.jpg

:cool:
Very good, perhaps you could make mine one of these...http://www.columbiacostumes.com/Images/Weapons/helmet_viking_fur.jpg
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
You are joking of course!?

Making 10Kg of aluminium from bauxite releases around 65kg of CO2. The figures you've been given are not even enough to make the wheels!

(OK, the electricity may have come from hydro, but you get my point)
Not disputing any figures John, only passing on what are government accepted and trade accepted published numbers for CO2 production of vehicles as released by the manufacturers. I understand that they are NOT including raw material extraction, only production from the raw materials once supplied to their specification and design, as they say that is not what they are doing.

John
 

essexman

Pedelecer
Dec 17, 2007
212
0
cb11
Sorry, not so. :p

The reason we have freedom of choice is political. The government wants us to cycle more, but also knows helmet wearing would put many off doing that. Therefore it doesn't legislate and even blocked a bill to make it compulsory for children, since they recognised that was a "thin edge of the wedge" attempt which would also deter children from cycling to school.

Governments take no notice of ranters and ravers. Before compulsion, some 92% of drivers didn't wear seatbelts and most vigorously opposed the legislation. No notice was taken and that law was ruthlessly imposed and still is, far more attention paid to it than to the things we do want like burglary and vandalism prevention and detection.
.
Gotta disagree here.

'The government' doesnt give a flying f##k about cycling. The reasons helmets were not 'compulsed' is precisely because of the groundswell of opposition that came through in all forums. You have to remember the climate back then, the BMA and the press were all saying helmets should be compulsary. It was motivated individuals (my ranters and ravers), supported by cycle orgainisations who wrote letters to the press, to their MPs , signed petitions etc that changed the governments mind. A strong example of that in action was last years Highway code changes.
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,509
23,337
The reasons helmets were not 'compulsed' is precisely because of the groundswell of opposition that came through in all forums. You have to remember the climate back then, the BMA and the press were all saying helmets should be compulsary. It was motivated individuals (my ranters and ravers), supported by cycle orgainisations who wrote letters to the press, to their MPs , signed petitions etc that changed the governments mind. A strong example of that in action was last years Highway code changes.
If the ranters and ravers had any influence at all on government, we'd have the death penalty, there wouldn't have been the seat belt legislation, and motorists would be far better treated with regard to taxation than they are. In particular they wouldn't be paying such a swingeing proportion of the fuel price as tax, and this is a lobby of over 26 millions, not a relatively tiny number of protesting cyclists.

Sorry, I don't wish to demean your efforts but I can't see they've made any difference. Laws like this are an EU matter anyway, and they too are opposed to legislation because of it's effect on cycling, and they won't have been influenced by an English parliamentary lobby.
.
 

john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
Public opinion and protests in particular can have an effect on government, the poll tax protests and the 2000 fuel price protests are two examples of that, but they do need to be big.

On the other hand, when the government (or PM) believes something strongly enough they can still ignore such protests, e.g. the invasion of Iraq.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,509
23,337
Public opinion and protests in particular can have an effect on government, the poll tax protests and the 2000 fuel price protests are two examples of that, but they do need to be big.
But only in part John, they not only need to be big but also on an issue where the Opposition will support the dissenters or at least be uncaring. Where the Opposition also takes the government line, governments will take no notice since there are no votes at issue.
.
 

Mandy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 23, 2007
512
0
You surprise me! Not only was the earth believed to be flat, it was also described as such with an elephant holding up each corner and the god Atlas holding up the whole. There were even illustrations in England of that, without revelations on how Atlas with two arms held up elephants at four corners though. And yes, Ancient Greece and Rome were seafaring peoples too.
.
Was the earth percieved to be square then? Corners? lol :D

I have seen Terry Pratchetts Disc world with the three elephants and a Turtle I think?
 

Jeanette Morgan

Pedelecer
Nov 29, 2006
114
0
CORNWALL
What Really Happened by Jeanette

Dear All,

I have just been on the internet to try to discover all the incorrect news items on the 61 year old cyclist in St Agnes. wjen I discovered the Pedelec thread.

Flecc, yes sadly it was my Richard. He was not in collision with any vehicle what so ever, nor did he swerve to avoid one. In fact he came to see me at my hospital for his usual cup of coffee and set off home at 12.15 . At the top of our road he was seen to manouvre around some pedestrians, continue a little down the road, wobble slightly and fall to the ground.

He had sustained a sudden, and unexpected, massive brain haemorrhage. The road is narrow, only just over a car width, it was holiday time, plenty of witnesses. Because he was so deeply unconscious at the scene the area was immediately cordoned off and two vehicles that arrived in the immediate vercinty were trapped within. They were checked to ensure there had been no contact with Richard's bike, and there was none, they were some distance apart from where he lay. In addition, they were left there for the rest of the day as reference points in measuring the road etc. as it was deemed to be a fatal accident.

I, in the meantime had been becoming worried as to why Richard was not home. The accident occurred at 1250 hrs. Eventually I checked the A&E at my hospital and found he had been brought in, possbile fatal accident. The bleed could have happened at any time, and any place. These last two months Richard had been feeling particularly well and never complained of a headache, and his BP was well within that advised by his cardiologist.

Yes he was wearing a helmet, and yellow high viz coat. The helmet had just a slight bump on the polystyrene at the back, nothing to indicate any force to the ground what so ever. The bike apparently is undamaged. Richard had not a cut or graze on him.

I had to make a 20 min decision whether to agree to transferring him to the Neurologist in Derriford for immediate surgery, this I obviously did, there was a 50% chance of getting thro the operation - and I may well add here that they said that it was because he had kept his cardiovascular exercise up by cycling, albeit electric cycling, that they decided he had a chance of survival.

Sadly after surgery I spent 11 days and nights with him in the Nerological Critical Care Unit at Derriford hospital. However, it was clear that once recovered from the surgery, after 4 days off sedation although breathing for himself (which is really just a reflex), he was non-responsive and if he were to continue the chances of any quality of life would be the absolute bottom end of poor. They removed his life support on Friday evening and he lived for 6 minutes after this. He died in my arms at 7.16 pm.

His funeral is on the 16th September in the St Agnes Parish Church followed by burial after in the local cemetery. The Coroner is involved and there is to be an inquest.

I am absolutely mortified by the incorrect news coverage all over the South West as it points to him being an irresponsible cyclist. He was a very careful cyclist, and as I'm sure most of you on this site know we loved getting out and about on our Sprints.

I do not regret the bikes, he died very happy, doing what he loved. As for myself, I am devastated. I naturally have not been on the Pedelec site lately, but felt I should come in to let you all know the truth, especially those of you who have known me on this site. Indeed, if he had of made it home he may have had the collapse in the house and I would have discovered him when I returned from work. Incidentally, because I had meetings that day at work I had tried to steer him to using the car to get something for his train layout - I'm so glad he was not driving when he had his stroke. I'm also glad we had that last coffee together.

I may very well be selling my bikes now, but not quite yet. I just don't know how I could enjoy cycling any more.

Jeanette
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,509
23,337
Dear Jeanette

I cannot express just how sorry I am to hear of Richard's misfortune and the consequences, particularly as I know of you as such a decent and honourable couple who are so much in love with cycling in your area of Cornwall.

I can however imagine the additional distress the misreporting will have caused you but at least in here you can put the record straight.

It's only natural that you will not want to cycle at present and may not wish to in the future, but the important thing is for you to have a period of calm and reflection in memory of Richard.

With best wishes for the future and kindest regards

Tony Flecchia
.
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Jeanette,

I am so sorry for your loss, my heart is with you

John Brown
 
D

Deleted member 128

Guest
Jeanette

I’m so sorry to hear this news, I send my utmost condolences.

Thank you so much for putting the record straight.

John
 

Phil the drill

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 14, 2008
395
6
TR9
Jeanette

I read your post today.

I am concious of the fact that I have never met either of you, or spoken on the forum. Nevertheless, I would still like to express my condolences for what must have been a terribly traumatic event, and a very sad loss for you.

My greatest sympathies, and condolences to you.

Regards, Phil.