Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[MikelBikel]

In industry brown outs cause a lot of damage to electronic control systems. Because the power switches off and on in a fraction of a second. This is worse than a total power cut.
Lots of ambient noise caused by solar and wind switching on and off can cause lots of damage, requiring isolation transformers being put into supply points. :-/
The other useful comments in the video are too long to reproduce here, so fill your boots on YT!

 

[Tony1951]

CATL has perfected their sodium battery technology which they also supply/license to Tesla. They are aiming for production cost is $10 per kwh for their 200WH/kg technology. That is roughly 10% of current selling prices of Lithium batteries. They and Tesla can knock up 1MWH containers easy peasy and make tons of cash with it.
In the West, we doubt that CATL will get there ($10/kwh) but if you look back at solar prices, it's not as infeasible as we'd like to think.


Do you want me to ask ChatGPT to check your estimate?
I think government has prepared a plan for net zero. They will ramp up storage batteries to about 50GW for 4 to 6 hours. Until then, we have to keep some gas.

We don't need to ask Chat Gpt. The data is readily available.

You have completely ignored the main point of my post on your battery idea - that every winter there are long periods of still, dark weather when all the renewables are severely curtailed. These periods, caused by blocked high pressure systems are regular and result in minimal green generation. Last winter we had a single period of about 25 days when the wind output was at 8 Gwatts. Demand was between 36 and 38 Gwatts, so we had a 28 - 30 Gwatt deficit. Subtract the Nuclear and the scam Drax wood burning eco-crime (combined at about 6 Gwatts) and we still have a serious deficit of around 22 Gwatts.

Over three weeks that is a massive requirement, currently supplied by gas.

Do the sums:

21 days x 24 hrs x 22 Gwatts = 11.88 terawatts

THAT is how much battery capacity you would need to supply.

Note I realised after posting yesterday that I had left out the generation of nuclear power plant and the Drax eco-scam wood burner that consumes American forests, so the figure given yesterday was too high, but the 11.88 terawatts is not far from the required gas supply to cover these regular wind droughts. There is even a technical term for them - a German word - Dunkelflaute.

The huge sums energy firms get to not provide power

Could the government's radical plan to change the way the UK distributes electricity really bring down bills - or just lead to a postcode lottery?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Woosh]

We don't need to ask Chat Gpt. The data is readily available.

You have completely ignored the main point of my post on your battery idea - that every winter there are long periods of still, dark weather when all the renewables are severely curtailed. These periods, caused by blocked high pressure systems are regular and result in minimal green generation. Last winter we had a single period of about 25 days when the wind output was at 8 Gwatts. Demand was between 36 and 38 Gwatts, so we had a 28 - 30 Gwatt deficit. Subtract the Nuclear and the scam Drax wood burning eco-crime (combined at about 6 Gwatts) and we still have a serious deficit of around 22 Gwatts.

Over three weeks that is a massive requirement, currently supplied by gas.

Do the sums:

21 days x 24 hrs x 22 Gwatts = 11.88 terawatts

THAT is how much battery capacity you would need to supply.

Note I realised after posting yesterday that I had left out the generation of nuclear power plant and the Drax eco-scam wood burner that consumes American forests, so the figure given yesterday was too high, but the 11.88 terawatts is not far from the required gas supply to cover these regular wind droughts. There is even a technical term for them - a German word - Dunkelflaute.

The huge sums energy firms get to not provide power

Could the government's radical plan to change the way the UK distributes electricity really bring down bills - or just lead to a postcode lottery?

www.bbc.co.uk

I did ask ChatGPT for uk government planning on storage batteries towards net zero.
ChatGPT confirm that the uk current plan calls for one order of magnitude investment to boost capacity until 2030 to 50GW for 4 to 6 hours and more beyond. ChatGPT suggested up to 1TW but nowhere as much as 18TW like your back of the envelope estimate.
I do realise that many of us believe that the hidden costs of renewables are unaffordable. I don't agree because I am optimistic that China will come up with technologies to lower the costs in time sufficiently.
I follow China's efforts in renewables a lot because they do what we all need and nobody else can to limit the damage to the environment.
Personally, I am looking into V2H kits with an investment interest. If anyone is interested, please let me know.

 

[Tony1951]

And you wonder why we have the most expensive electricity (both industrial and domestic) in the developed world.

You are ENTIRELY unreasonable in the way you argue. I feel as if I am discussing creation with a religious fundamentalist. You get nowhere, because their belief is founded not on reason and facts, but on a fundamentalist dogma. It is entirely pointless. They believe in their shyte whatever facts you put before them.

Our industrial base is collapsing while we export that production to China with probably the most carbon intensive electricity on the planet.

Now you will tell me that they have lead the world in solar panels - That doesn't make a scrap of difference when they are emitting 35 times the carbon that we are, and that their electricity involves emissions of 492gms co2 per kilowatt hour (and was until recently 532gmCo2 Kwhr) while ours is 125gms/kwhr. Our power grid is four times less co2 emitting, but the price of power drives power intensive manufacture abroad.

Most of this unreasonable cost is in the hands of our politicians. It is a self imposed crucifixion of manufacturing, family budgets, and every sector of the economy.

 

[Woosh]

They produce for the world.
You should check how much carbon that an ordinary Chinese person is responsible for and compare that to ours. I am pretty sure that you and me beat even the average Chinese because both of us are conscious of the consequences of our choices, however, compare the average Brit to an average Chinese.
As far as why we de-industrialised, we have MT for that. I remember very well how she argued on TV that our future is fintech.
FYI, according to chatGPT, the average yearly residential electricity consumption from non-renewables China: 641kwh, UK 738kwh. With higher rate of expansion of renewables, China will achieve net zeo on domestic electricity sooner than us.

 

[saneagle]

It's interesting stuff, but a waste of time arguing it out on an ebike forum. Nothing you say will change anything. Power companies will do what they do. The Government will do their thing. They're all working under the orders of the big boss whatever or whoever that is. Suck it up and submit plebs, you'll have bigger things to worry about in a couple of weeks, anyway!

 

[Woosh]

you'll have bigger things to worry about in a couple of weeks, anyway!

What will happen in a couple of weeks? World War 3?

 

[saneagle]

What will happen in a couple of weeks? World War 3?

Not WW3, but you'll see. Remember this post, and if nothing happens, you can come back and laugh at me, like I did with you over your TDS hysteria. This shouldn't be discussed here, and I shouldn't have mentioned it. This forum is for ebike stuff.

 

[Woosh]

[

Not WW3, but you'll see. Remember this post, and if nothing happens, you can come back and laugh at me, like I did with you over your TDS hysteria. This shouldn't be discussed here, and I shouldn't have mentioned it. This forum is for ebike stuff.

Ok, the thread is in the wrong place but the discussion is on subject. Ask it to be moved if you like.

 

[Tony1951]

Not WW3, but you'll see. Remember this post, and if nothing happens, you can come back and laugh at me, like I did with you over your TDS hysteria. This shouldn't be discussed here, and I shouldn't have mentioned it. This forum is for ebike stuff.

The title of the thread is Prices of Electricity we use to Charge.

This is BANG ON RELEVANT to that matter.

What has been discussed in the last few posts is EXACTLY about our ridiculous electricity costs and why they are as they are.

 

[Woosh]

The thread should better be in the charging post.

 

[Woosh]

What has been discussed in the last few posts is EXACTLY about our ridiculous electricity costs and why they are as they are.

We rely on gas for our electricity for decades while we should have built up more wind power at least a decade earlier, at the time of the coalition government, the only time when I liked politics in the uk. It was far from perfect but still a refreshing change from the two party system.
Ever since the Ukraine war started, gas went up 1,000% for a year, uk government doesn't find enough money to support electricity price. If you want to find a cause for the high price, it's the lack of investment in wind and solar.

 

[saneagle]

The title of the thread is Prices of Electricity we use to Charge.

This is BANG ON RELEVANT to that matter.

What has been discussed in the last few posts is EXACTLY about our ridiculous electricity costs and why they are as they are.

I was referring to what will probably happen in a couple of weeks and people's TDS not belonging in this thread.

 

[Woosh]

and people's TDS not belonging in this thread.

You are the first person speaking of the one who shan't be name in this thread. Nobody else does.

 

[saneagle]

You are the first person speaking of the one who shan't be name in this tread. Nobody else does.

I already admitted that I shouldn't have done it in post #10648. I'm sitting here self-flagellating as penance. What more do you want?

 

[flecc]

I already admitted that I shouldn't have done it in post #10648. I'm sitting here self-flagellating as penance. What more do you want?

You can still edit that out with it making sense:

Not WW3, but you'll see. Remember this post, and if nothing happens, you can come back and laugh at me, like I did with you over your TDS hysteria. This shouldn't be discussed here, and I shouldn't have mentioned it. This forum is for ebike stuff.
.

 

[chris_n]

We rely on gas for our electricity for decades while we should have built up more wind power at least a decade earlier, at the time of the coalition government, the only time when I liked politics in the uk. It was far from perfect but still a refreshing change from the two party system.
Ever since the Ukraine war started, gas went up 1,000% for a year, uk government doesn't find enough money to support electricity price. If you want to find a cause for the high price, it's the lack of investment in generationof any sort.

FIFY
When people are arguing about the costs of building renewables and the changes that are required in the grid to accommodate them there is rarely any acknowledgement of the fact that little of significance has been built for years. The existing nuclear fleet is mainly past its sell by date and coal generation was going to have to be replaced anyway. If UK was building more new nuclear or more new gas the bills would be higher due to the "nuclear levy" or the "gas levy" rather than the "green levy".