Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[saneagle]

Oh dear, oh dear, you could hardly be more wrong.

Now try adding the 900,000 home fast chargers to the 53,000 public ones and you'll see that we have simultaneous charging for all the 950,000 BEVS we have, right now!

Now consider that 85% of all charging is done at home, why wouldn't it at as low as 5 pence per unit, rather than up to 50 pence or more?

And that the 85% home charging is done at night when most people and cars are at rest and the supply is abundant and cheaper.

Also consider to that all cars, including BEVs, spend almost their entire lives parked, creating numerous charging opportunities. For example for years the most popular of all public charging points have been the supermarket ones when they are parked anyway and the current is often subsidised or free as a loss leader.

And the above is only a sample, there are many other factors you haven't even begun to consider, like the growth of the charging infrastructure is exponential at an ever increasing rate, or there's another 10 years before the IC cutoff, or that the bulk of the car market, 80%, is used car sales of ICs f or a long time yet.
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You have a very blinkered approach. You can't use a home charger if you're not at home.I would have thought most people would be able to understand that.

I know several people, who have EVs, some for business and some for private use. They're unanimous in saying that charging away from home is becoming more problematic. The one I saw a few days ago used the word "nightmare". All these people are EVangelists.

How many times in the last year did you charge your vehicle let's say at least 50 miles from home and what experience did you have?

 

[soundwave]

total paid 0 why nothing had been paid in over 6 years so debt was statute barred so no legal way to get it unless a payment was made of course.

 

[flecc]

You have a very blinkered approach. You can't use a home charger if you're not at home.I would have thought most people would be able to understand that.

I know several people, who have EVs, some for business and some for private use. They're unanimous in saying that charging away from home is becoming more problematic. The one I saw a few days ago used the word "nightmare". All these people are EVangelists.

How many times in the last year did you charge your vehicle let's say at least 50 miles from home and what experience did you have?

It's not me who is blinkered. Why are those EVangelists using EVs if they are so unsuitable and why didn't they do their homework? They don't need to have them and the country doesn't need them to. Repeating once again, at our usual replacement rate of 1.4 million a year it will take 23 years to change all our cars to EVs once the changeover even starts in ten years time.

In the meantime those like me who are truly suited to having an EV and who have done their homework are all who should change, but only if and when it is sensible. And we are the great majority of all UK car owners. I once again remind you that the average annual mileage of each of all our cars is 7300, 20 miles a day, and over half of all our car owners almost never make any long journeys. A large proportion never do, so don't even need the range present EVs have.

So please will you and all the other naysayers remove your blinkers and stop panicking as if the change is both imminent and vital.

It isn't by a long chalk. There's plenty of time to change, at least 33 years. There's plenty of chargers for a long time yet and their exponential expansion is already assuring most of them will continue to lose money for many years.

Our charger position is far, far ahead of the situation for petrol cars for petrol stations in their first and second decades, but that hardly caused them to fail in the market did it?

As the number of EVs continues to rise over the next decades, there will be plenty of chargers, but by then the whole scene will have changed as people get more used to EVs, their capabilities and their limitations. Unlike the present IC generation they will have different expectations and many will not even own a car, something that is already happening now in urban areas.

To answer your question, I've only rarely needed to charge away from home since I bought an EV with sufficient range for my longer journeys. But when I have the experience has been unfailingly excellent using Instavolt chargers with Contactless payment.
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[soundwave]

i think in the next ten years to amount of ppl driving around will be nothing like it is now as just wont be able to afford the electric or insurance and just be cheaper to get a uber lift that own a car out right.

my step dad renewed his insurance the other day and got charged 650 quid for a 2008 car and took the payment twice of course as wont do it on the net!

and doubt he would pass a driving test if he had to retake one but id say he gets 1 more car and thats it.

every car he has given away to ppl that won had to sell the car because they could not afford to insure it let alone run and also fix it.

also buy then range wont be a problem as most speed limits will be computer controlled with sensors in every road in the name of safety but it just means you have less control over what you own and used as can be turned of and why when the ps3 came put said i was done as you dont own the games and just download them.

also another problem is all these corporation's care about is making products and more money so the harder they make it to repair stuff and also refuse to sell parts means it is a bin job like apple crap.

a car or anything else does not need tracking 247 via wifi and gps and subscription fees for heated seats and bricked cars because a firmware update failed because of a crap os build.

as my bike has none of this smart crap in it as long as i can get the batt recelled no reason why it still wont be going in 10 years from now and got 1 free motor service anyway

it is just those fkn batts and can bus encryption we need a way round

 

[snafu]

Imagine a dystopian world where electricity had always been the choice for power of infrastructure and said infrastructure was well established. Charginging points abound, although home charging is the norm.

Then one day someone discovers oil and gas and builds a car powered by this new discovery. So many benefits. High range (Depending on the tank capacity). Refuel in minutes. All you have to do is drive to a local refuel point (Let's call them petrol stations). What's not to like? Well the congromolates who own these "Petrol Stations" charge you what they want, and have to provide a myriad of different products. Unleaded, Super Unleaded, Diesel, Supreme Diesel, LPG. It's up to the customer to decide what they want/need. Would we buy into it? The key word is Infrastructure. Most would I'm sure say "What!! I can't refuel from home?". and "HOW MUCH???"

And therein lies the problem with current BEV's from my perspective. I personally think they are superior to IC platforms in almost every way (Although the sound of a V10 F1 car or the BRM V16 is a joy to behold). While the vast majority of current owners have home charging points for the rest of us underlings adoption is a lot more difficult. I've heard all the rubbish spouted about using Lamp posts as points of delivery but I know for a fact that the wiring used to supply these would melt under the loads required by even the current fast chargers. (Plus the lampost outside my house hasn't worked for years and that's on a major arterial dual carriageway). In short BEV's are a great idea well thought out and developed but let down by the short sightedness of establishment. We have major energy providers doing trial runs where people use less energy at certain times while pushing proven BEV technology down our throats with no concept of how it works in the real world. a BEV would be perfect for 90% of my journeys, but the planning and anxiety linked with the other 10% where I might be many miles from a charging point (If it even works) makes adoption a very risky option for me.

The total control of your vehicle by remote means although a worry is already here on IC cars so it's not a BEV issue specifically. (But it is one reason why I'll stick with my 13 year old Berlingo until it shuffles off it's mortal coil through age).

Sorry such a long post, New year, Party, too many lemonades.

Happy New Year everyone.

TTFN
John.

 

[afzal]

The total control of your vehicle by remote means although a worry is already here on IC cars so it's not a BEV issue specifically.

To add, modern cars (irrespective of ICE or not) are the worst product w.r.t privacy per Mozilla report,

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/

 

[lenny]

Household energy price rise of 5% comes into force

A higher cap for the next three months adds £94 to the typical annual domestic energy bill.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[flecc]

I've heard all the rubbish spouted about using Lamp posts as points of delivery but I know for a fact that the wiring used to supply these would melt under the loads required by even the current fast chargers.

Excellent post overall, but you are wrong on lamp post and bollard chargers for two reasons. Firstly they are not fast chargers, they are slow overnight chargers. Secondly, as part of EV planning, the upgrading of street lighting has been widely used as an opportunity to dig up and rewire the systems for future needs. This happened in my entire London borough of Croydon, one of the largest, about four years ago. As I keep stating in my posts, this subject is very much bigger than any of the critics realise so they all speak from a serious lack of sufficient knowledge. These overnight chargers are an excellent solution for present EV needs and Ubitricity have installed over 7000 of them here.

They won't suffice long term but don't need to since our EV growth will be slow as I've explained, taking over 33 years to complete. Meanwhile the whole pattern of charging will change as people gradually change to location charging as part of their lives. So forget stopping to fill right up IC style and think lots of little top ups. Already for years now the most popular of all public charging locations has been supermarkets, topping up while getting shopping, with their current often subsidised or free as a loss leader. Many gyms and fast food drive-ins have installed chargers for the same reason and even the odd cinemas with parking spaces have too. Many local authority car parks have free charging bays to encourage EV adoption and some lucky employees have free charging at work. I hope you can see now that the future reality will be very different from what you imagined, and anyway far fewer people will own their own cars in future.

a BEV would be perfect for 90% of my journeys, but the planning and anxiety linked with the other 10% where I might be many miles from a charging point (If it even works) makes adoption a very risky option for me.

I'll stick with my 13 year old Berlingo until it shuffles off it's mortal coil through age).

But we don't need you or even want you to change right now, where would we suddenly get 33 million EVs from to satisfy everyone?. All we need and can supply is a growing trickle per year over the next ten years. Then from the eleventh year onwards our usual 1.4 million a year car replacement rate. Just look at the proof, it's taken ten years of slowly expanding sales to reach our just under a million BEVs. That has run smoothly, progressively expanding, just as the next ten years will too.

So please stick with your Berlingo and the same advice to all others not BEV suited at present. It is all we need or want you to do, and after all, 80% of the entire car market is used car sales so it suits the trade too.
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[Nealh]

My energy prices and SC remain unchanged with Octopus , my tracker tariff varies daily .
Last dual fuel energy bill was £75 covering 29/11 - 28/12.

Looking forward to the completion and connection of Derril Water to the grid late this year which should knock 30 - 40% off the cost of my future energy bills (p.a ) for the next 40 years.

 

[snafu]

Excellent post overall, but you are wrong on lamp post and bollard chargers for two reasons. Firstly they are not fast chargers, they are slow overnight chargers. Secondly, as part of EV planning, the upgrading of street lighting has been widely used as an opportunity to dig up and rewire the systems for future needs.

To be honest considering the state of intoxication at 2:30am on Jan 1st I'm just amazed the post was reasonably coherent with a minimum of spelling errors.

I take your point about lamp post and bollard chargers and the necessary current requirements, I guess their biggest enemy is the lack of security during the charging process, I'm happy to be corrected, but left overnight what is to stop mindless morons unplugging cars during charging simply for "the fun" of it. (Or to charge their own vehicle).

Probably a stupid observation but I have often wondered why "Super/Ultra" capacitors are not used more in BEVs. I appreciated their energy density and ability to hold charge is abysmal compared to batteries so not suitable as a primary source of power or long periods of inactivity, but could they not be used for almost instant charging and then in turn charge the vehicle battery once back on the road. I know they are already used in regen circuitry during deceleration so it would seem to me that using them for initial charging would be a natural progression. Plus their capacity is not affected by adverse temperatures in the same way that batteries are and they don't degrade due to charge cycles like batteries. As I said probably a stupid question, answers on a postcard....

TTFN
John.

 

[flecc]

I take your point about lamp post and bollard chargers and the necessary current requirements, I guess their biggest enemy is the lack of security during the charging process, I'm happy to be corrected, but left overnight what is to stop mindless morons unplugging cars during charging simply for "the fun" of it. (Or to charge their own vehicle).

Chargers can't be uplugged until the charge is switched off by the initiator. The plug and socket are locked together. For example,I can switch off the charge with a switch on my locked car dashboard or with a switch on my remote control, or with my contactless card that initiated the charge on contactless chargers.

Probably a stupid observation but I have often wondered why "Super/Ultra" capacitors are not used more in BEVs. I appreciated their energy density and ability to hold charge is abysmal compared to batteries so not suitable as a primary source of power or long periods of inactivity, but could they not be used for almost instant charging and then in turn charge the vehicle battery once back on the road. I know they are already used in regen circuitry during deceleration so it would seem to me that using them for initial charging would be a natural progression. Plus their capacity is not affected by adverse temperatures in the same way that batteries are and they don't degrade due to charge cycles like batteries. As I said probably a stupid question, answers on a postcard....

I'm not qualified to give a complete answer, but lithium batteries suffer proportionally from the charging speed. Blasting one from a super capacitor is a surefire way to kill it or even instantly start a catastrophic fire.
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[snafu]

I'm not qualified to give a complete answer, but lithium batteries suffer proportionally from the charging speed. Blasting one from a super capacitor is a surefire way to kill it or even instantly start a catastrophic fire.
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I wasn't suggesting the capacitor dumps the charge straight into the battery, there would of course be a regulator between the 2 based on the battery capability which charged from the capacitor at the appropriate rate. I was more wondering why they could not be used to get the energy onto the vehicle quickly therefore making the charging/refuel experience closer to what people are used to with IC cars.

TTFN
John.

 

[flecc]

I wasn't suggesting the capacitor dumps the charge straight into the battery, there would of course be a regulator between the 2 based on the battery capability which charged from the capacitor at the appropriate rate. I was more wondering why they could not be used to get the energy onto the vehicle quickly therefore making the charging/refuel experience closer to what people are used to with IC cars.

TTFN
John.

I don't know why that hasn't been attempted John, but I do know the huge effort that has been put into all aspects of research into all types of e-car batteries and charging from circa1990 to the present. So there must be good reasons why it doesn't attract.

Asking Google:

"why aren't supercapacitors used for onboard charging of e-cars"

brings up some interesting answers in Quora, but their very low energy density and their weight and bulk seem to be big factors.
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[saneagle]

I wasn't suggesting the capacitor dumps the charge straight into the battery, there would of course be a regulator between the 2 based on the battery capability which charged from the capacitor at the appropriate rate. I was more wondering why they could not be used to get the energy onto the vehicle quickly therefore making the charging/refuel experience closer to what people are used to with IC cars.

TTFN
John.

A 4kwh supercapicitor would be one cubic meter in size, cost around £4,000 and give you 12 miles of range. To get 100 mile range from your lamppost, you'd need a storage of 25 cu M at a cost of £25,000.

 

[Woosh]

Tungsten trioxide is a promising material for supercapacitors. It can store 1kwh per litre, charge in seconds and is capable of 50,000 discharge cycles. https://www.thekurzweillibrary.com/battery-breakthrough-charges-in-seconds-lasts-for-a-week

 

[saneagle]

Tungsten trioxide is a promising material for supercapacitors. It can store 1kwh per litre, charge in seconds and is capable of 50,000 discharge cycles. https://www.thekurzweillibrary.com/battery-breakthrough-charges-in-seconds-lasts-for-a-week

Tungsten trioxide was invented in 1841, one year after the first postage stamp. I don't remember reading anything about the Victorians driving around in 200 mile electric vehicles, but they did send a few letters.

 

[Woosh]

Happy new year by the way

 

[saneagle]

Happy new year by the way

Happy new year to you too, and I hope it's a prosperous and healthy one. Actually, I want to put healthy first, because we're all getting old and health starts to get in the way of the other two.

 

[PC2017]

payment was made of course

Just to note, I believe acknowledgement of the debt also removes the 6 years barred status but things may have changed since then. I once told an ex not to answer the water company if they rang/wrote and she did, I had a DRO in place so she had to fork out the whole bill...

 

[lenny]

Just to note, I believe acknowledgement of the debt also removes the 6 years barred status but things may have changed since then.

What is Statute Barred debt? | PayPlan

When a debt becomes Statute Barred it means that it can't be enforced by the courts any longer, but this dosen't mean it'll be written off completely.

www.payplan.com