Pro Connect or e-Motion City DeLuxe 700

[Hugh]

Hi All.

I'm looking at replacing my Izip Trekking Enlightened with a Panasonic-based bike. I use it for commuting, about 6-7 miles each way.

Which to choose (assuming I can get my employers to help via the Cycle to work scheme)?

I've tried and liked the e-Motion, which seems very good value for money, but the Kalkhoff has rave reviews, is German, and has a wider range of frame size (I'm just over 6ft tall).

How do I decide - coin toss?

All advice and opinions gratefully received.


Thanks, Hugh

 

[tillson]

How do I decide - coin toss?

All advice and opinions gratefully received.

Well, unless you can afford too, I wouldn't spend over a £1000 on the basis of a coin toss .

You really need to try out one of the Kalkhoffs. I have never ridden or seen an EMotion so I have no idea what they are like and can't advise you in respect of which one is best. That would most likely come down to personal taste anyway.

Assuming both are similar, you have to consider which, for you, represents better value for money, which company you think could provide you with the best level of after sales support (this may be geographical) and other such factors.

 

[Bandit]

I have the e-Motion, which I like much. I tried an Agattu, which I also liked. I don't think there's a lot in it, although an equivalent Kalkhoff used to be much more expensive, I'm not sure it now is. From memory, the e-Motion feels a bit lighter, and now that I'm used to it, I definitely prefer derailleur gears because you can change the cassette to obtain both a higher top gear and a lower bottom (and removing the rear wheel is a bit easier). I agree that you'll have to try both. Does the bike to work scheme cover bikes over £1000, though?

 

[tillson]

I definitely prefer derailleur gears because you can change the cassette to obtain both a higher top gear and a lower bottom (and removing the rear wheel is a bit easier). I agree that you'll have to try both. Does the bike to work scheme cover bikes over £1000, though?

You can change the rear sprocket on the hub gear to give a higher top gear.

Cycle scheme can be used to buy a bike over £1000. For example, if you want a bike costing £1500, you use the Cycle Scheme voucher to fund the first £1000 and pay the £500 from your own funds. By doing this, you only get the 40% ish tax break on the Cycle Scheme £1000, so the total final cost will be in the region of £1100. ((1000 - 40%) + £500)= £1100

 

[Tim]

I have the e-Motion, which I like much. I tried an Agattu, which I also liked. I don't think there's a lot in it, although an equivalent Kalkhoff used to be much more expensive, I'm not sure it now is. From memory, the e-Motion feels a bit lighter, and now that I'm used to it, I definitely prefer derailleur gears because you can change the cassette to obtain both a higher top gear and a lower bottom (and removing the rear wheel is a bit easier). I agree that you'll have to try both. Does the bike to work scheme cover bikes over £1000, though?

The 2010 Pro Connect will come in two versions, one with Shimano Alfine gears as usual and the other with Shimano Deore 9-speed derailleur gears, as well as front fork suspension with a lock-out. It'll be a sort of son-of-Pro Connect S.

 

[Bandit]

You can change the rear sprocket on the hub gear to give a higher top gear.

.. but will that not give you a higher bottom gear, too?

 

[tillson]

.. but will that not give you a higher bottom gear, too?

It does give a higher bottom gear, but on the standard sprocket the bottom gears are far too low. Fitting a smaller sprocket, in addition to providing nice top end gearing, moves the lower gears up into a much more usable range.

 

[Bandit]

It does give a higher bottom gear, but on the standard sprocket the bottom gears are far too low. Fitting a smaller sprocket, in addition to providing nice top end gearing, moves the lower gears up into a much more usable range.

Far too low for what? We live in a very hilly area, and the attraction of the Panasonic drive is that, if you're willing to go slow enough, you can climb pretty well anything. On a 20% slope, though, that means putting in your third to a half of the power, and in my experience a lower bottom gear helps you do that if the cadence required still gets you maximum assist. Should you need to pause, a lower bottom gear also makes the hill start easier! And finally, if you run out of juice, you really appreciate a lower bottom gear on the somewhat heavier bike you're now going to have to get home.

Most of the time, thank goodness, electric bikes don't seem to need much in the way of gears at all.

 

[flecc]

As Tillson says Bandit, the low gears on all the Panasonic unit bikes with 7 and 8 speed hub gears are far too low, whether for cycling with power or without. The reason is that the top gear on these chain drive bikes has to be set very low for the maximum assist speed to be restricted to 15 mph in accordance with the law. Of course on a normal bike with these hub gears the top gear is set to comfortably enable much more than 15 mph giving more normal lower gears.

A second reason why the low gears are too low is the way the Panasonic unit works, only delivering maximum power below 40 rpm pedal cadence, so you need the lower gears to be on the high side to get maximum power at all cycling speeds. Pedalling faster in low gears gives you less power so is unproductive for hill climbing. To see the whole story on this, go to my article on how these units work on this link.
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[Bandit]

As Tillson says Bandit, the low gears on all the Panasonic unit bikes with 7 and 8 speed hub gears are far too low, whether for cycling with power or without. The reason is that the top gear on these chain drive bikes has to be set very low for the maximum assist speed to be restricted to 15 mph in accordance with the law. Of course on a normal bike with these hub gears the top gear is set to comfortably enable much more than 15 mph giving more normal lower gears.

A second reason why the low gears are too low is the way the Panasonic unit works, only delivering maximum power below 40 rpm pedal cadence, so you need the lower gears to be on the high side to get maximum power at all cycling speeds. Pedalling faster in low gears gives you less power so is unproductive for hill climbing. To see the whole story on this, go to my article on how these units work on this link.
.

Surely without power, and with a heavier bike, a lower bottom gear would enable you to tackle steeper gradients than you otherwise could? Admittedly, with the fixed size chain wheel it's still far from optimal and you'd have little chance of tackling anything steep without assistance.

As far as I can calculate, the max assist 37-40 rpm cadence maintains 4mph in my bottom-most gear, so I should still be getting a good proportion of the several hundred watts I need to go up a 1 in 5 hill even at that speed. It would be better, obviously, if the controller knew what gear I was in and could allow me to contribute my bit at a cadence which enables me to deliver more power, but I can see why Panasonic has chosen to keep things simple.

 

[Fecn]

As far as I can calculate, the max assist 37-40 rpm cadence maintains 4mph in my bottom-most gear, so I should still be getting a good proportion of the several hundred watts I need to go up a 1 in 5 hill even at that speed. It would be better, obviously, if the controller knew what gear I was in and could allow me to contribute my bit at a cadence which enables me to deliver more power, but I can see why Panasonic has chosen to keep things simple.

If you change the motor sprocket from 9-tooth to 11-tooth, then you get a far usable set of gearing (at the expense of shorter battery range). That shifts the max power band all the way up to 48 rpm which is a far more comfotable speed to be pedalling at. That increased pedal cadence means you go up hills at 5mph instead of 4mph, and shifts the top assist speed up to 18.3mph (with standard hub gearing still in place). I would recommend the 11-tooth motor sprocket to anyone who finds the leisurely cadence on the panasonic units to be a bit too slow. - It also makes it worthwhile to pedal like hell in a low gear to get up hills rather than the strange way the panasonic system normally rewards you with more power for pedalling slower in a high gear on hills.

 

[flecc]

As far as I can calculate, the max assist 37-40 rpm cadence maintains 4mph in my bottom-most gear, so I should still be getting a good proportion of the several hundred watts I need to go up a 1 in 5 hill even at that speed.

Typically with the Nexus 7 the maximum speed with full motor power in bottom gear is 3.8 mph, and an average rider I've calculated could manage 1 in 3.7 with that speed. Fecn I know has ridden appreciably steeper with his Panasonic powered bike. Since that 3.8 mph is really too slow for balance comfort on two wheels and we are unlikely to hit steeper than 1 in 5 in most parts of the country, a higher overall gearing makes sense for virtually everyone. I'm speaking from years of experience of the Panasonic system in the very hilly North Downs area where Fecn also lives, plus plenty of knowledge of the system's working. A Fecn says, the alternative way of raising the gearing using an 11 tooth motor sprocket makes sense if higher cadences are wanted for physical efficiency. Either way, few people leave the gearing on these as standard these days, no matter how hilly their area.
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[Hugh]

e-Motion or Kalkhoff

Thanks to all for comments. Re-gearing is clearly the thing to do, whatever the bike, both motor sprocket and rear sprocket/cassette. I certainly found the gearing on the e-Motion I tried was very low and actually made hill-climbing quite slow (or hard work if pedalling at anything like my normal cadence).

I'll look at the Kalkhoff before deciding, but I suspect it may still come down to the toss of a coin (or a helluva lot of coins really) - derailleur (familiar, easy to fix and modify, upgradeable) vs hub gear (clean, protected, but unsure about reliability.

Has anyone got a clear idea of likely loss of range resulting from re-gearing?

 

[HarryB]

Thanks to all for comments. Re-gearing is clearly the thing to do, whatever the bike, both motor sprocket and rear sprocket/cassette. I certainly found the gearing on the e-Motion I tried was very low and actually made hill-climbing quite slow (or hard work if pedalling at anything like my normal cadence).

I'll look at the Kalkhoff before deciding, but I suspect it may still come down to the toss of a coin (or a helluva lot of coins really) - derailleur (familiar, easy to fix and modify, upgradeable) vs hub gear (clean, protected, but unsure about reliability.

Has anyone got a clear idea of likely loss of range resulting from re-gearing?

As long as you avoid the nexus 7 as it has a horrible change you will be fine. I think it depends on your view on maintenance as the hub is better in that respect. I had a go with the latest 8 speed alfine hub and it was fantastic. Very smooth changes and I couldn't tell that it was theoretically less efficient than the derailleur. Add to that the better chain life and you have yourself a winner.

Not sure about the loss of range as it all depends. I changed from a 22 sprocket to the 18 and the range went from about 40 to about 25 but these are very approximate figures.

 

[flecc]

To add to Harry's information, some of those who made the most extrreme change from the 22/23 tooth sprockets to a 16 tooth to give assist to around 20 mph have had the range drop to as low as 18 miles. I recommend a 19 tooth on the Kalkhoff Pro Connect (down from 23 tooth) and an 18 or 19 tooth on the Agattu (down from 22 tooth). Both of these are moderate in their effect on range, while giving a sensible amount of re-gearing for motor assist to almost 18 mph with hill climbing still more than adequate.
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