Pro Connect vs. Ezee Torq vs. Wisper 905se - which is 'best'?

[flecc]

I think that someone from cyclepoint needs to clarify whether the Torqs they are selling can be derestricted or not as it seems as clear as mud. Especially as this is probably the main selling point of the bike.

In my post above I referred to BarneyD, and his 2008 Torq did do the legal speed. When he went to derestrict it he found the link already open, so he joined it. The result he reported was that it only ran to 12.5 mph then, so he disconnected it again and mailed Mr Ching, receiving the reply above.

So whether there is a derestrictor link or not isn't definitive, we need to know what the derestricted speed actually is if it's derestrictable.
.

 

[Mandy]

Thanks both. Good point about the new Torq.

So I guess it's the short range of a 'cheap' older Torq vs. the range of the more expensive Pro Connect and Wisper.

Has anyone actually tested a Pro Connect and a Wisper 905se back to back or at least had a go on both? I think you're right flecc, try before you buy!

Actually, I'm 5' 9" so the wisper should fit me fine, it has the off-road boost, similar range to the Pro Connect, looks pretty funky, is £300 cheaper and as a motorcyclist I quite like the idea of having something to twist with my right hand (no, not my nipples!). The only things that put me off are the suspended forks and I don't know how free-wheeling it is compared to the Pro Connect... (oh and the thought of saving muito money by getting one of the 2nd hand torqs on ebay!)?

Daz

Hi Daz
I think everything has been said about all
I would try test rides if you can?
My suspension forks on my Wisper are lockable and I tend to lock them on the normal road/flat terrain to decrease rolling resistance.
I unlock them for the bumpier journey's.
Hope you find the bike you are after? I think all of the one's you have mentioned have their strengths and for me the Wisper is de-restricted, looks cool has a motor only option and gets me out and about quickly and has a good distance range.
All the best with your search for the right bike for you

 

[WaiWonChing]

Chief eZee Operator

Hi,

Yes, I made an error, eZee has more drag on freewheeling than the Panasonic system. My apologies to all.

W W Ching

 

[Tiberius]

Hi,

Yes, I made an error, eZee has more drag on freewheeling than the Panasonic system. My apologies to all.

W W Ching

OK, I think that is fairly clear for freewheeling. The freewheel on a hub motor is still turning, but all the mechanism for a drive thru gears motor will be stopped.

But what is the situation when pedalling above the cut off speed? Then both mechanisms will be turning - what's the relative drag then?

Nick

 

[flecc]

But what is the situation when pedalling above the cut off speed? Then both mechanisms will be turning - what's the relative drag then?

Nick

I've always found lower drag overall at above assist speed on both the old and new Panasonic systems (Lafree and Kalkhoff), where I'm able to cycle for miles on my one flat route out with speeds often above 15 mph. I would never attempt that on my two eZee systems, it's exhausting after a little while.

At lower speeds I can pedal the Torq ok at 13 mph without power for a while, but the effort needed is very much greater than on either Panasonic system with power off.

On the bicycle side the eZee bike does have the advantage of the more efficient gear system, hub gears being several percent less efficient than derailleur gears, and of course that also affects the Panasonic system's efficiency as well. Indeed such loss overall as it has is largely due to that. At the near maximum speeds where e-bikes spend most of their lives, wheel-hub motors can be intrinsically more efficient than drive through chain hub gear systems, though that is offset on the Panasonic by it's very high efficiency in all other respects.
.

 

[coops]

On the same subject, does the claimed higher 'stiction' of the Panasonic system when pedalling have a greater impact on cadence speed than the friction from hub motor gears, or can its effects be similarly offset (to a degree) by increasing cadence?

I would be more averse to direct pedalling resistance if it more negatively impacts legpower contribution than some extra wheel friction.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

On the same subject, does the claimed higher 'stiction' of the Panasonic system when pedalling have a greater impact on cadence speed than the friction from hub motor gears, or can its effects be similarly offset (to a degree) by increasing cadence?

Stuart.

Not quite sure what you mean there Stuart.

There is no higher stiction in the Panasonic system when pedalling, there's much less than the drag from geared hub motors when they are not under power.
.

 

[coops]

I was going from Hal's comment flecc:

On the freewheeling issue the Kalkhoffs are definitely the best freewheelers but there is more stiction when you pedal. I wouldn't rule out trying the cytronex if you are interested in a pure cycling experience. It gives the pro-connect a run for its money on the freewheeling side but without the pedal stiction.

i.e. maybe more pedal stiction than a 'normal' bike, but less drag than from most/all geared hub motors, granted.

I was wondering if the 'stiction' (if it exists) through the pedals/drivetrain might be harder to offset with a higher cadence (due to resistance in the pedals) than hub motor gear friction which, although higher, is in the wheel not the pedals.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Yes, more than a normal bike, but I think Hal was referring to the overall position which includes the hub gear losses, which loses the Panasonic systems a little.

Cadence won't make a difference. There is no internal mechanical connection whatsoever between the pedal shaft and the rest of the unit. Mechanically it's just a normal bottom bracket except having high precision ballraces well above normal cycle part standards. The only connection is through the chain between the chainwheel and the motor sprocket, so any added drag can only come from an extra sprocket and idler on the chain, little different from a derailleur jockey wheel pair.
.

 

[coops]

Ah yes, of course! its the hub gears isn't it! I'm always forgetting their slightly lower pedalling efficency than derailleurs, probably because I've no experience with them.

I thought it odd about the stiction because I couldn't recall mention of much resistance at all in the Panasonic system, quite the opposite in fact as you say. Thanks for solving that one.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately the efficiency of hub gears is rather lower than quoted figures Stuart. The figures quoted from tests are an averaging over all the gears in a hub, and that gets distorted because one of the gears is usually direct drive so 100% efficient. That lifts the average unrealistically, and the fewer the gears, the more that distorts.

For example, one set of tests (widely disputed by others) gave the most efficient hub, the SRAM 3 speed an efficiency of 92%, near to derailleur figures. But of course with the middle gear at 100% efficiency, the efficiency of the other two gears was much lower.

In general, the greater the ratio change, the lower the efficiency, so with direct drive in the middle of a multi-gear hub, the top and bottom gears will be the most inefficient. That's a pity on hub gear e-bikes which spend most of their life in or around top gear.

Three exceptions to the above:

The Nexus inter-7 has no direct drive gear, all 7 are indirect.

The Sunrace Sturmey 8 speed has direct drive in bottom gear, so this is the last hub which should go on an e-bike, since it's top gear is a very indirect severe ratio change.

The NuVinci drives through steel balls on a track so should be more efficient than gears and may possibly gain from lower efficiency loss due to degree of ratio change.
.

 

[HarryB]

Thanks for the explanation - I am not sure where the inefficiency lies, I only know that it exists somewhere in the drive chain. I suspect it is a combination of hub, motor freewheel and the idler gear all adding to the inefficiencies - most likely more the former most at fault. All I know is that compared to my Trek hybrid, it is heavy to pedal without power.

I must admit to being a bit disappointed with my choice after 500+ miles. I think I was expecting too much but it is still early days. My main gripes are that in order to make half decent progress I get very sweaty as I put in a fair amount of work. If I don't do this then the battery ends the day flashing and come winter I suspect I will have to charge at work and thus defeating one of the main advantages of the Agattu. Also the bike is far too heavy and this may add to the feeling of "heavy pedalling".

I have spent the last month re-building my father's 30 year old Dawes Galaxy into a light weight, stripped down racer. It will be very interesting to see how it does the commute into work and if I end up more or less sweaty. You can begin to see which electric bike I am leaning towards ...begins with C and ends with X. Light weight, no hub gears and as efficient as possible.

 

[flecc]

Yes, I don't think you are a natural Panasonic system customer Hal, there are many like you of course. It could be that you are using cadences that are too high and that makes it hard work at times, but that said, the battery usage doesn't add up either, since at high cadences it should be lower.

I'm sure I'm very much less fit than you at my age and not daily commuting, but the Panasonic system bikes I find very easy to ride. The key is probably speed, since I'm happy to use the bike with standard gearing and it's 65 cadence at 15 mph and average about 12 to 13 mph. Higher speeds with good battery economy do mean more work on these bikes.

The Cytronex could well suit you better. Here's an exclusive. . A to B have one on test currently and actually find it faster than a Torq or Forte, so that sounds like it would suit your requirement for a decent commute speed with a light bike that can make good use of your cycling efforts.

Maybe selling the Agattu would be the best option, as it shouldn't be difficult to find a customer for it.
.

 

[HarryB]

Yes, I don't think you are a natural Panasonic system customer Hal, there are many like you of course. It could be that you are using cadences that are too high and that makes it hard work at times, but that said, the battery usage doesn't add up either, since at high cadences it should be lower.

I'm sure I'm very much less fit than you at my age and not daily commuting, but the Panasonic system bikes I find very easy to ride. The key is probably speed, since I'm happy to use the bike with standard gearing and it's 65 cadence at 15 mph and average about 12 to 13 mph. Higher speeds with good battery economy do mean more work on these bikes.

The Cytronex could well suit you better. Here's an exclusive. . A to B have one on test currently and actually find it faster than a Torq or Forte, so that sounds like it would suit your requirement for a decent commute speed with a light bike that can make good use of your cycling efforts.

Maybe selling the Agattu would be the best option, as it shouldn't be difficult to find a customer for it.
.

I think the battery usage does make sense. You cannot have something for nothing and after all the battery has a smaller capacity than the Torq's. Now I have altered the gearing to suit me, I have to use the higher cadences otherwise the battery depletes too quickly (and that means going quicker or changing down a couple of gears).

I think when I put a tongxin motor on the Torq as a bit of an experiment I inadvertently invented the best electric bike for me. But I bought the Agattu because of the Ezee battery problems (now solved, but not at the time) and frankly my wiring was a bit suspect (and that could have been fixed). For me there is still the problem with electric bikes that a chunk of the energy from the battery goes into overcoming their inefficiencies (weight, motor drag) and the Cytronex goes some way towards fixing that problem. I will have to have a test ride but I am pretty sure once I get used to all that button pushing, I will be smitten.

PS I bought the Agattu on the cycle to work scheme and I am not sure I can sell it before the year is up (although to be honest if I bought another electric bike for £1000 it would amount to the same thing).

 

[robert letts]

The button pushing became natural by ride 2 on the trek. I always wondered why my muscle power never seemed to add more than about 2-3 mph to the electric power of the forza. It must be fairly inefficient.

What the boffins have spent hours and pages trying to explain in these pages in a scientific way is actually the mysterious (and not new) magic of a good light bike propelling a fairly large weight (I AM 6"2' and 15 stone myself) fairly effortlessly with a combination of low rolling resistance, and good bike dynamics (i.e. easy to transfer my rather poor muscle power to forward motion).

Add that to a high power electric battery/motor combo from cytronex and you are off! I think everyone should club together and buy shares in his 'no hills' company if they are ever issued, because it is likely to be a winner.

 

[flecc]

For me there is still the problem with electric bikes that a chunk of the energy from the battery goes into overcoming their inefficiencies (weight, motor drag) and the Cytronex goes some way towards fixing that problem.

There's no question of that. It will still be the case or years to come though, since the Cytronex solution doesn't suit those who aren't true cyclists and don't really want to be. Many who want them for shopping, car replacement for commuting etc often want the bike to do most of the work and also don't want the discomfort of a normal efficient bike. For them it's suspension forks, mudguards, full comfort equipment etc, so the end weight is inevitable.
.

 

[flecc]

I always wondered why my muscle power never seemed to add more than about 2-3 mph to the electric power of the forza. It must be fairly inefficient.

They certainly are, a problem with all the internally geared hub motor bikes. Pedalling them is a pain.
.

 

[dazzie]

Some amazing info you guys (and gals), thanks!

Flecc, internally geared hub motored bicycles are a pain to pedal? That's a scary statement.

The whole point of me getting a pedelec is to have as high an overall speed as possible to try to get the commute down to a reasonable one hour - i.e. average speed of 17mph. I'm a heavy guy but strong with it (an ex-bodybuilder) and really I'm just after something to help me get up the hills quicker than I would on my own, and allow me to cycle quickly along the flattish parts and down hill sections.

Oh, and since Saturday night I'm no longer a motorcyclist (thanks to hoodies and living in Bristol)!

Daz

 

[ElephantsGerald]

1. The Torq is the easiest to de-restrict (just pull out and insulate a wire)

The Wisper 905 has a big green button on the handlebars that de-restricts it - how can mucking about pulling out wires be easier than pushing a button? .

Flecc, internally geared hub motored bicycles are a pain to pedal? That's a scary statement.

The whole point of me getting a pedelec is to have as high an overall speed as possible to try to get the commute down to a reasonable one hour - i.e. average speed of 17mph. I'm a heavy guy but strong with it (an ex-bodybuilder) and really I'm just after something to help me get up the hills quicker than I would on my own, and allow me to cycle quickly along the flattish parts and down hill sections.

I think flecc means hub motored bikes are a pain to pedal unpowered (which is definitely true in my experience).

If you turn the power on, then a hub-motored bike such as the Torq II or Wisper 905 is easily capable of achieving the performance you're looking for.

Bad luck with the hoodies, although I guess it'll hasten your cycling decision to a rapid conclusion.

Regards,

Elephants

 

[dazzie]

The Wisper 905 has a big green button on the handlebars that de-restricts it - how can mucking about pulling out wires be easier than pushing a button? .

Haha, good point!