Problem with Raleigh rear wheel

[lectureral]

About every week over the last month my rear wheel has moved so that it rubs on the brakes (eg when I change gear or go over a bump). On investigation it appears that the right hand (starboard) nut is coming loose - doesn't matter how much I tighten it, it comes loose. Of course I can carry a spanner and tighten it regularly but it was not a problem over the first year of cycling. Any suggestions as to a more permanent fix?

 

[tillson]

I think that this hub uses the same nut as the 8 speed (Y-314 14010) or at least this is what the Shimano Tech Docs indicate.

The Shimano assembly guide recommends tightening the nuts to between 30-45 Nm. This is surprisingly tight so it might be worth tightening them with a torque wrench if you haven’t already tried that.

 

[lectureral]

Thanks Tillson - I do have the 8 speed (it's actually a Raleigh Leicester E) - I'll see if I can get a loan of a torque wrench.

 

[Neil]

Get a new nut

Had a similar problem, the thread of the nut was damaged. Went to my local bike shop and replaced it with a 50p track nut.

 

[flecc]

The frame dropouts on the Agattu/Leicester are very strong, so tightening with an adequate nut should do the trick.

If the problem does persist, see if a bike dealer can lay his hands on a bike chain adjuster for you. These were popular years ago and still appear on motorcycles. They consist of a a thin steel plate which fits over the spindle and extends to the rear of the dropout where they right angle and have a bolt with locknut bearing on the external end of the dropout. The chain is adjusted with the end bolt and then it's locknut secured, making it impossible for the wheel to move forward.
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[Fecn]

I have had this problem with my Agattu too... Every 2-3 months the nut on the chain side of the bike seems to slacken off. A chain adjusting bolt would be just perfect for what I need - I might see if I can knock up something appropriate in my shed.

 

[tillson]

I have thought about putting a chain adjuster on my bike, mainly because I think it would make it easier to set up the rear wheel. I find it a real pain the re-align the back wheel once I have removed it.

I know very little about these things other than not all are suitable for Nexus / Alfine hubs, so if anyone can post a link to something suitable, I would appreciate it.

 

[lectureral]

That's helpful, as ever, Flecc - I shall look out for something on those lines.

 

[flecc]

I have thought about putting a chain adjuster on my bike, mainly because I think it would make it easier to set up the rear wheel. I find it a real pain the re-align the back wheel once I have removed it.

I know very little about these things other than not all are suitable for Nexus / Alfine hubs, so if anyone can post a link to something suitable, I would appreciate it.

Here you are Tillson, a simple chain adjuster from Bonthrone Bikes:

Chain Adjuster

I don't know how this would cope with the thick section dropouts on the Agattu though.
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[tillson]

Here you are Tillson, a simple chain adjuster from Bonthrone Bikes:

Chain Adjuster

I don't know how this would cope with the thick section dropouts on the Agattu though.
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Thank you flecc. I think for the price it is worth having a go. Even if they don't fit they will probably make a good starting point for modification.

 

[flecc]

I think so too. You could probably make a U shaped strip with an offset hole to fit the thick Agattu dropout material, replacing that end cap.
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[iaing]

Problem with Agattu rear wheel

Have exactly the same problem with my Tasman.

Iain

 

[tillson]

I had no problems at all until I changed to an Alfine hub. Since then, I have found that the axle does move forwards on the drive side and have had to re-set it every month or so. Not a huge problem but I could do without it.

Yesterday, when I re torqued the wheel nuts to 40 Nm (As per assembly instructions) I stripped the thread on one of the nuts. This is quite strange because they are the original nuts which I have been tightening to this figure since I bought the bike. Thankfully, the nut seems to be the weak link and the thread on the axle has escaped unscathed.

I have read a couple of reports on other forums about thread stripping occurring with the Alfine hub and also of the axle moving forwards on the drive side. I think that a chain adjuster would be of real benefit both for stopping this happening and in assisting to set the wheel. Some of the MTB forums suggest the same thing, but finding a suitable adjuster is another matter.

I have ordered the adjusters which flecc kindly posted a link to. I'm pretty confident that they won't fit but they may be able to modified. I'll post the results when I have had chance butcher them.

 

[robert44]

If you can tighten the nuts holding the wheel in the forks, then the threads must be ok. If the nut/s then loosen, the nut/s were not tightened enough. Tighten the nut/s to the recommended torque and if you want to, use some threadlock compound eg Loctite.
Chain adjusters will not prevent the wheel going out of line if the wheel nuts become loose. Bicycle manufacturers always fit nuts even when they fit chain adjusters

 

[tillson]

I have stripped the thread in the nut, I experienced that horrible sensation when the wrench starts to become easier to turn as you continue to tighten. The nuts were full of swarf when I took them off! I placed too much trust in my torque wrench!

I was thinking of using the chain adjuster to supplement the wheel nuts, not instead of. The wheel nuts providing the clamping action onto the dropout and the the adjuster to provide additional lateral restraint. I think it should work.

 

[flecc]

If you can tighten the nuts holding the wheel in the forks, then the threads must be ok. If the nut/s then loosen, the nut/s were not tightened enough. Tighten the nut/s to the recommended torque and if you want to, use some threadlock compound eg Loctite.
Chain adjusters will not prevent the wheel going out of line if the wheel nuts become loose. Bicycle manufacturers always fit nuts even when they fit chain adjusters

It's not as simple as that Robert.

As Tillson has said, he's already stripped the thread at the recommended torque figure, and Threadlock isn't convenient on a nut that will be routinely undone for maintenance purposes, there are better solutions than that.

I can assure you that chain adjusters most definitely prevent a wheel moving out of line if a wheel nut starts to slacken, and I say that from trade experience of the days when bicycle chain adjusters were commonplace and also from trade motorcycle experience where they still are routinely used.

Shimano changed the spindle on the Alfine, saying they'd made it stronger without specifying how. If it's very high tensile, the lack of "give" will not give the maintenance of grip that some elasticity gives. Since Tillson has only experienced the problem since changing to the Alfine, this hypothesis fits.

There's more than meets the eye where the tightness of wheel nuts in slot dropouts is concerned though. There is always a small degree of vertical tolerance in the fit of the spindle in the dropouts, and the effect of road shocks versus the bike and rider weight will always move the spindle up to take up that tolerance. The result is a fractional change in the area of grip of the nut on the two sides of the dropout, leaving less grip on the lower. This is exacerbated by the degree of compression (dishing) of the dropout material that nut tightening brings, since an upwards movement of the spindle forces the upper edge of the nut onto an undished section of the upper dropout, at the same time moving the lower half of the nut more into the dished area, lessening the lower grip.

The forward force of chain pull, multiplied when the chain transmits rider and motor power as on these bikes, exerts a rotational force on the nut as the spindle tries to move forward. On the right hand side that rotational force undoes the nut due to that lower underside grip, on the left hand side the rotational force tightens the nut, and that's an additional reason why it's always the right that loosens.

In turn this is why chain adjusters additionally help, especially if the adjuster bolt has a locknut. That's because the forward chain pull is primarily opposed by the tightened chain adjuster, in turn removing the potential for rotational force being applied to the wheel nut.
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[lectureral]

Flecc's point about the different action on the 2 nuts reminds me of the time I had to change a right hand (I think) wheel on the very first vehicle I (part) owned - an Austin Champ.

How I strained, using longer and longer levers. Finally, someone more knowledgeable than I explained that the right hand wheel nuts were reverse threaded to counteract the effect on nuts of spinning wheels.

 

[flecc]

. Similarly, the opposite threads on bicycle pedals have often caught people out.
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