Safer cycling? Don't get a helmet and cross red light

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
if you were wearing Totectors, it might not hurt so much. Plus, if you joined their Golden Shoe Club, and subsequently died from your squished foot, you would be able to claim the £10,000 insurance money.
Totectors! I've not heard that brand mentioned for years. I remember queueing outside the Totector van as a 16 year old apprentice, waiting for my free shoes. The company changed supplier to Goliath a few years later. They were rubbish, unlike Totectors, the Goliath safety boot was no good at all for dancing.

Have a like for nostalgia value.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MikeyBikey

stevieb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2014
292
69
have to agree that statistics can be used to prove / disprove lots of things.
one that comes to mind was the one quoted for soldiers when they first started using steel helmets.
the stats showed that after using steel helmets the number of head injuries rose in number which could misleed you into believing that they were a bad thing .
in reality the soldiers who received head injuries whilst wearing their new helmets would previously have been killed without them, but the death rates were a different set of statistics.
i whole heartily agree that it is better to avoid an accident in the first place but as quoted some degree of protection is better than non.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tillson

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
I was never enrolled into the Golden Shoe Club, but I do remember finding the certificate and application form in the shoebox.

Thanks for the links, amazing to see Golden Shoe HQ. I would imagine the club is only a shadow of its former self with the decline of industry.
 

Aushiker

Pedelecer
Whenever we get these arguments, people always pick statistics that support their cause. You can prove nearly anything with the right statistics.
No, that is not correct. Statistics are simply a reporting of the data. If we do not understand the statistics and/or research methodology or the data is misrepresented in some way then that is not the fault of the statistics, rather it comes back to us or the researcher or the reporter.

A much smarter approach is learn to interpret the data, to learn to understand the methodology, to go back to the source papers and then make an informed judgement.

On the subject of "proof" I think that Gay & Diehl (1992, p. 7) sum it up quite well with this comment ...

"Difficult as it is for beginning researchers to believe, the purpose of research is not to make a case in favor of a belief - that is what position papers are for - or to prove a point. Research is an objective, unbiased quest for replicable findings." [1]

For what it is worth Gay is well published in this area and has a number of good introductory books into research methodology. My interest is business research hence this reference but Gay has research texts in other areas as well.

For example statistical significance is normally accepted at .05 or .01 levels neither of which are 100% of the population.

[1] Gay, L. R. & Diehl, P. L. (1992). Research methods for business and management. New York: Macmillan Publishing Company.

Andrew
 
Last edited:

Aushiker

Pedelecer
have to agree that statistics can be used to prove / disprove lots of things.
one that comes to mind was the one quoted for soldiers when they first started using steel helmets.
the stats showed that after using steel helmets the number of head injuries rose in number which could misleed you into believing that they were a bad thing .
in reality the soldiers who received head injuries whilst wearing their new helmets would previously have been killed without them, but the death rates were a different set of statistics.
That is not a fault of the statistics, that is a fault of the research methodology. All the "statistics" are in this instance a recording of what was observed, that the observations where inadequate or mis-interpreted is not the fault of statistics and may also reflect the understanding and type of research undertaken at the time [1].

Research is just not about the "results" the statistics, it also about the prior literature, the theoretical model, the research model and the interpretation. If you read "exciting" research papers :) you should see those elements coming through all the time. I suspect part of the problem is that we often "report" the outcomes, the conclusions when what is really needed is to take those conclusions in context of the full paper. Of course with blog postings, forum postings, newspaper articles etc publishing the full paper is not practical (or possible, e.g., copyright laws) so a reference to the source is important to allow for those interested to go back to get the complete research picture.

Replicated research, meta analysis, contempt peer review are all key aspects of growing our knowledge and that is why care is always or should always be taken with single studies. It is much smarter to look at the broader research for patterns and developments (you will often hear comments of this nature made in the context of medical research for example and for good reason).

Of course also proper and careful analysis of the published research papers should form part of that; not relying on Internet postings or newspaper articles and the like. One of the reasons I am always keen to go back to the actual research ... the references or source data :)

[1] I am assuming this was research related to the first or second world wars. It is interesting therefore that Cohen in his extensively referenced, dare I suggest, seminal work on statistical power analysis in 1969 wrote in the preface to that original text,

"... I became increasingly impressed with the importance of statistical power analysis, an importance which was increased an order of magnitude by its neglect in our textbooks and curricula. The case for its importance is easily made: What behavioral scientist would view with equanimity the question of probability that his investigation would lead to statistically significant results, i,e., its power? And it was clear to me that most behavioral scientists not only could not answer this and related questions, but were even unaware that such questions were answerable. Causal observation suggested this deficit in training, and a review of a volume of the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology (JASP) (Cohen, 1962), supported by a small grant from the National Institute of Mental Health (M-517A), demonstrated the neglect of power issues and suggested seriousness." (Cohen, 1988, p. xix).

Cohen's observations suggest that the development of research to the standards we are familiar with now did not extensively exist prior to 1969 so to be fair to the researchers their findings may in part at least reflect the research techniques of the time.

The Cohen (1988) reference is:

Cohen, J. (1988). Statistical power analysis for the behavioral sciences (2nd Ed.). Hillsdale, N.J.: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Publishers.

Regards
Andrew
 
Last edited:

NZgeek

Pedelecer
Jun 11, 2013
116
37
Whangarei, Northland, New Zealand
I should think that the compressabilty of the helmet padding has little to do with the protection afforded, but the spreading of the load over a bigger area of skull is likely the main benefit.

A head hitting a concrete kerb takes all the impact along a suprisingly small line where the curved skull hits the flat kerb corner. Put the same head in a helmet, and the initial force of impact is lessened by the distortion in the helmet, and the load is spread over more of the skull as the helmet moves and distorts. The surface area of impact could be increased to many times that of the unprotected impact Potentially hundreds of times.

The brain will still bounce back and forth inside the skull, potentialy causing damage, but the likelyhood of an object piercing the skull and applying direct force/damage to the brain is surely reduced?
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I should think that the compressabilty of the helmet padding has little to do with the protection afforded, but the spreading of the load over a bigger area of skull is likely the main benefit.
That's a good point about spreading the load, but I don't believe the first part is correct. As Tillson explained, the G-forces are substantially reduced by the padding. I can see three levels of protection:
Reduction of G-forces
Reduced risk of penetration of the skull
Lower point loads

All three work together and compliment each other to reduce the overall damage.

For those that said that motorcycle helmets offer more compression, if you take out the polystyrene liner from the helmet, you'll see that it's about the same size and thickness as a cycle/snowboarding helmet. The outer fibreglass/Kevlar/CF doesn't compress, but does offer more impact resistance and load-spreading.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NZgeek

eclectic_bike

Pedelecer
May 3, 2011
72
3
He's right on helmets, almost all are practically useless.

Government surveys show that only just over a quarter (27%) of cyclists wear them in the UK, but almost all the cyclists killed each year in London are wearing them. Some years it's been every one. Even nationally, of the a little over 100 cyclists killed each year, far higher than a quarter are wearing them.

It's as though wearing one provokes more risk of an accident happening, and there is come evidence that may be true.

Like Trex, I don't wear one but don't jump red lights.
That sounds like the suggestion that cars seat belts should be replaced with a big spike in the middle of the steering wheel to encourage safer driving.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,814
30,379
That sounds like the suggestion that cars seat belts should be replaced with a big spike in the middle of the steering wheel to encourage safer driving.
Your reasoning is very weird. In what way is what I've said like that? All I did was draw attention to the severe limitations of cycle helmets, I didn't say don't wear them.

Your parallel would only be true if I'd said cycle helmets threaten more damage in the way a steering wheel spike would.
 

peerjay56

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 24, 2013
745
201
Nr Ingleton, N. Yorkshire
Your reasoning is very weird. In what way is what I've said like that? All I did was draw attention to the severe limitations of cycle helmets, I didn't say don't wear them.

Your parallel would only be true if I'd said cycle helmets threaten more damage in the way a steering wheel spike would.
I believe it was an amusing aside, flecc:p. Unlike empirical research, it does not have to draw logical conclusions from the given evidence to result in a satisfactory conclusion. Like all other debates on the efficacy or otherwise of cycle helmets, posts like the one by eclectic_bike (great name, by the way!:cool:) are likely to be the most useful, and least polarising. IMHO, of course;)
 

MikeyBikey

Pedelecer
Mar 5, 2013
237
23
We really need the infrastructure to separate the different modes of transport so different types of travellers don't come into conflict in the first place.
Footway for Pedestrians
Cycleway for Cyclists and
Carriageway for... Guess!
Armouring up to fend off incoming tons of (mis)guided vehicle is a fruitless pursuit. :eek:
Though, if the govt will pay for my 'Ironman' suit, I will pay a reasonable amount for 250W assistance over unity. :cool:
Otherwise, lets go Dutch and enjoy the wind in our (in my case vanishing) hair. :)
Oh, science, well in the Netherlands they've found that it's "Power corrupts..." as when heavy scooters were excluded from cycleways, the accidents went down so much they're going to exclude light scooters too. EBikes still allowed though ;).
"When the heavier type of mopeds was sent to the carriageway in 1999 there was a decrease of 15% in casualties on the cycle paths. This was investigated by SWOV, the foundation for scientific research regarding road safety in the Netherlands." source:
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I just wish they'd get pedestrians and parked cars off the cycle ways. They both cause a lot of stress on journeys that would be otherwise relaxing. I'm using the cycle paths less and less now because I'd rather have a more relaxing ride on the road.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hugh and stevieb

axolotl

Pedelecer
May 8, 2014
150
50
50
The problem with stats on helmets is that it's difficult to draw sound conclusions by looking at raw accident data because head injuries only make up a relatively small proportion of cycling injuries overall.

What I find really surprising however, is the number of people who wear a helmet but don't bother with eye protection. At any sort of reasonable speed, bits of grit thrown up by vehicles, flying insects and other debris approach your eye way faster than the blink reflex can cope with. The consequences are only too predictable.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I find my helmet to be great for protecting my head against the ever increasing overhanging branches on the local cycle paths.
Very good point. I forgot about that one. Some of our cycle paths have become more like assault courses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pea
Let me put some numbers to this:

a = ((v1*v1) - (v0*v0)) / 2d

Say you are travelling at 20 MPH v0 = 9 m/s

d = 2 mm of foam (say for a cycle helmet) a = 20250 or 2025G (most likely fatal even though the G force is for a very short duration)

d = 50 mm of foam (motorcycle helmet) a = 810 or 81G (most likely survivable)

I hope this illustrates that it is mainly about the value of (d) and a bicycle helmet gives you very little.

As TREF says above, these bike helmet need a re-think. I believe that the way forward is a lightweight aluminium honeycomb outer shell which distorts on impact (giving a greater value of (d). The current polystyrene ones are a con (very little (d)).
Being an owner of both types I can tell you the difference in the thickness of the polystyrene layer is nowhere near as large as you're portraying.

Without pulling one of my motorcycle helmets apart to measure exactly I'd say that the bicycle helmet is about two thirds that of a motorcycle helmet and the material used in both is the same - expanded polystyrene. It's actually a good material to use as it compresses well in any direction and as it compresses it spreads the force over a wider area than the impact area.

There's lots of good info on the net about it.
 
The problem with protective garments on bicycles and motorcycles is that they have the surreptitious tendency to lull you into a feeling of false security, that you can take more risks because, heck, should anything happen you'll be fine, fine!

When they enforced helmets on motorcyclists deaths didn't go down and injuries actually went considerably up - because the riders were less cautious in all probability.

I know when I go out without my leathers on that I ride like a granny and then when fully suited and booted I ride like I stole it. ;)

I don't wear a helmet on pushbikes and I constantly worry about crashing as I quite like my head this shape and take the necessary precautions to keep it that way ;)