Shock warning! Should we ask for Registration?

[smudger1956]

How and why Tony? It works for 30 million cars and a million mopeds!

They have to be registered to be on the road, and so would bikes have to be. It really is that simple. Some US states have e-bikes registered and Switzerland and Germany have their fast class e-bikes registered and plated. In the 1950s in Britain we had over a million bicycles fitted with small petrol assist motors, every one of them registered with tax discs and number plates, and that was well before there were computers to administer.

Patently it is not unworkable.
.

I refer my learned friend to posts 34/36/37 to start.
FAQ's In the registration world.....?
I have just built an MTB using a Commencal frame with Kona forks and Mavic rims, what do I register this bike as.
I would like to convert my Corratec hybrid to electric,what is the procedure for re registration.
My Sunn bike has been registered, but there is no identification on the bike as to it's manufacturer, how do I prove the identification of the bike in the event of being checked by the Police.

 

[eddieo]

Silly....It will be registered as a bitsa? ( bits of dis, bits of dat)

Probably registered on frame no?

 

[flecc]

I refer my learned friend to posts 34/36/37 to start.
FAQ's In the registration world.....?
I have just built an MTB using a Commencal frame with Kona forks and Mavic rims, what do I register this bike as.
I would like to convert my Corratec hybrid to electric,what is the procedure for re registration.
My Sunn bike has been registered, but there is no identification on the bike as to it's manufacturer, how do I prove the identification of the bike in the event of being checked by the Police.

Exactly as Eddie said, a Bitsa. The scheme would be primarily an anti-theft register with number plates as used in all the other places and at all the other times I've answered with. They also have and had bitsas and conversions and registration works. Bike registration will never have the sophistication of motor vehicle registration, nor is it necessary. It's just a way of stopping the major proportion of theft which is such a huge problem at the moment.

I was in the bike trade fitting motors to bikes and registering them in the 1950s, and as said, there were over a million of them at one time then. I often didn't have a clue what make those bikes were, since in WW2 and just after, one couldn't buy new bikes and existing ones were endlessly patched with s/h parts.

Bike registration works in the past and in the present, here in Britain and in other countries, proven fact. During those difficult war years and for a while after when bikes and parts were in short supply and theft became a problem, Guernsey had universal bike registration and number plates to prevent theft, cycling being very popular in that small 9 mile by 4 mile island.

No argument you can propose can demonstrate bike registration cannot work, nor is it in any way a burden. We are all online and I tax my cars in seconds online each year, it's no longer any hassle at all, nor would it be for bikes.

 

[DJH]

Registration doesn't stop cars getting stolen, the only thing that has had an effect is sophisticated immobilisation systems.

 

[flecc]

Registration doesn't stop cars getting stolen, the only thing that has had an effect is sophisticated immobilisation systems.

I refer you back to what I've already posted. Cars have high values that can make theft/cloning/numberplate swapping etc worth while, and thieves tend to concentrate on the best ones anyway. Bikes don't have those sort of values. Stolen bikes are shifted quickly at well below their value anyway, so that makes number plate swapping and forging log books not worth while. No-one would buy a bike without number plates or log book, just as they won't buy a car without them

And I refer back to the proven facts that I've given of past and present working schemes. But perhaps your opinion of today's British population is so poor that you don't think them any longer capable of doing something simple that they used to do.

This scheme would stop the bulk of all bike thefts as it's done in the past.

Bike registration works!

 

[flecc]

Voluntary is fine. As soon as it becomes mandatory it will carry with it penalties for not complying.

Voluntary won't work, only a universal system works, since stolen bikes can still be sold unregistered in a voluntary market! I can't understand the thinking behind the voluntary suggestions since it could do no good, so would be pointless.

Of course there would be penalties for using an unplated or unregistered bike, why is that a problem to anyone except a thief?

 

[neptune]

I am still new to this forum , but people may have noticed that I am a bit eccentric .My life has been a bit of a roller coaster ride , and at times I have had money , and other times very little . I can be happy either way . One thing that has kept me going when times were hard was that you could always have and ride a bike .If you know enough people , you can most probably beg one . The same applies to a cheap transistor radio .To me it was reassuring to know that however hard things were , you could always have entertainment and transport . This represented a sort of low tide mark below which it is virtually impossible to sink .I have known times when to ask me for a tenner was like asking me for a million pounds . I know there are few in this position , but to those few , it would seem like the end of the world .

 

[flecc]

I've known those times Neptune, so well understand the point made.

Of course in proposing this I knew that the great majority would object to the increased regulation and perceived loss of freedom, and that certainly fits in with my usual preferences. I tend to dislike regulation and government getting their sticky fingers into anything. Indeed I go further and say government doesn't work, so it's application should be minimal.

For once though I see this as the lesser of two evils. Bike theft is a huge national problem and growing rapidly, since they are an obvious ill-protected theft target. Selling and fencing stolen ones is just far too easy at present. Nothing else known or mentioned works, short of lockable public bike cabinets which cost vastly more than £10 a year tax.

This issue doesn't affect me personally, so if others are happy to carry on with the ever increasing theft, higher insurance costs and locks expenditure, that's fine with me. Just be aware of how big a problem this is:

There are just over 50,000 daily bike journeys in London. presumably mostly the same cyclists daily. The London annual bike theft total is now well over 20,000 and rising. Those two figures are ominously close.

 

[mike killay]

Do we have a break down of the types of bikes that are stolen?
And why?
I guess that many are a casual 'take, ride and abandon'
Others, the more expensive ones will be sold on.
I imagine though, that if a Police Officer in a car saw a stolen bike, it would very hard if not impossible to catch it. I know that the Police around here ride off road motor cycles to catch the motor bike thieves, but pedal cycles are so much more able to squeeze through gaps etc.
Since a portion of bike thieves are multiple offenders, I still favour banging them up for long sentences. If they are in jail, they cannot steal. When released, tag them.

 

[flecc]

Those stolen are across the board Mike, only the real rubbish exempt. They are mostly taken for gain, just to ride them being only a tiny proportion, such takers don't carry large bolt cutters. There are ready outlets to sell them since as said, it's just too easy to do so. In Britain we have one of the highest hard drug using populations in the world, almost all needing to feed their daily habit by theft. And we are quite high up the criminality league too.

And as I clearly proved earlier, harsh punishment doesn't work. Keeping people in prison to prevent theft as you suggest and Michael Howard once suggested is sheer, stark, raving madness. It costs over £1000 a week to keep each prisoner and most don't steal anything like that each week! We'd save money by throwing open the prison gates!
.

 

[flecc]

For every one of us who owns something we treasure, there are ten people within close proximity who will happily relieve you of ownership, and a little number plate will not stop them from doing so.

Not so Bob. You are forgetting the registration document (log book). Just as no-one buys a car without one, no-one would buy a bike without either, so the majority of thefts for gain would stop.

 

[smudger1956]

Very interesting debate, the ideology is sound enough, but from a political view, what a vote loser for any party to introduce this type of legislation.

 

[flecc]

Very interesting debate, the ideology is sound enough, but from a political view, what a vote loser for any party to introduce this type of legislation.

Absolutely, not a popular measure at all, despite the obvious benefits. Still, it's said people are their own worst enemies!

I never thought for one moment that I'd get anything but opposition and am agreeably surprised to find some in favour. Eventually it's likely that government will be moved to do something about bike theft, since it's scale is growing into a major crime statistic and threatening to become a political embarrassment. With cycling popularity growing and more suffering theft, action may have to be taken and I can't see anything other than registration working.

 

[eddieo]

Even though it sounds logical and I kinda like it, as it will discourage a faction of thieving scumbags..........Somefink makes me tink is this an early April fools stunt, by a mischievous Tony!lol

 

[Cyclezee]

I forgot to follow up this thread I started last year http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/stolen-electric-bikes-equipment/8018-electric-brompton.html .
I was informed by the Met that they apprehended someone for the theft of that and other bicycles. I was required to give a statement and that person was subsequently prosecuted and found guilty.

I do not know if the bike was returned to it's owner or the sentence that was handed down to the thief.
If Flecc's registration idea had been in force back then, the theft may not have happened in the first place .

With the resources and manpower of the Police being as stretched as they are, I would rather see them spending their time and our money preventing crime and chasing more serious criminals than bicycle thieves.

Flecc's suggestion could well help reduce the level of crime at no great cost , therefore, I support it fully.

 

[flecc]

Even though it sounds logical and I kinda like it, as it will discourage a faction of thieving scumbags..........Somefink makes me tink is this an early April fools stunt, by a mischievous Tony!lol

No, it is serious Eddie. I've had it in mind for a while but timed the thread opening to relieve a dull point in the forum.

In our society with it constant high unemployment, high levels of hard drug addiction, widespread low morals and disenchantment with any authority, we simply can no longer afford to leave high value items unidentifiable and accessible to theft.

By it's nature and usage, we cannot effectively protect the bike from being taken, but we can make its theft unproductive by registration.

 

[eTim]

By it's nature and usage, we cannot effectively protect the bike from being taken, but we can make its theft unproductive by registration.

To draw a parallel with car thefts of old - in the days when car thefts were a massive problem, before immobilisers and car security became good enough to reduce statistics, all the thieves did was joyride, sure there were a few ringers, cut and shut's etc and punters were fooled into buying them with forged docs and registration, indeed that still happens.

The current market for stolen bikes is almost a reverse of that, bikes are stolen for profit, not for joy, I wonder if registration would alter the stolen bike market to be like it used to be for cars, for joyriding, for vandalism, to be chucked in the canal, just for the hell of it.

If you lock your bike with a good enough chain and lock to a secure item, the thief will move onto an easier target, surely the same will apply if a bike is registered, the easy targets will be taken and joyridden/trashed instead of being sold on, so the thief moves onto 'pleasure' stealing.

So registration reduces bike crime? Fact? If so, where is the example? And if true, by how much does it reduce bike crime?

Flecc - you haven't produced any evidence to backup your assertions thus far, is there any evidence that you can provide?

 

[flecc]

I wonder if registration would alter the stolen bike market to be like it used to be for cars, for joyriding, for vandalism, to be chucked in the canal, just for the hell of it.

So registration reduces bike crime? Fact? If so, where is the example? And if true, by how much does it reduce bike crime?

I strongly disagree about the joy riding, serious owners will still lock their bikes and joy riders are opportunist youngsters, they don't carry powerful bolt cutters. Bikes they steal come from back gardens or those carelessly left unlocked for a moment outside shops.

As for the evidence, Guernsey is the only example I know where it was introduced for that reason and according to my ex boss of long ago who was a Guernseyman, living there at the time and in the cycle trade, it worked.

But commonsense is more than enough to know the facts. The need for the log book to sell a bike and the low value gain from stolen bike sales rules out sophisticated forging of documents and number plate swapping, unlike the high end car market where values are much higher. As you rightly infer, thieves will move onto the next easiest thing, whatever that might be. I am totally confident this measure would result in a huge drop in bike thefts.

Stealing and fencing them is just too easy at present, registration with a log book and number plate would completely reverse that situation and be beyond the average bike thief and fence.
.

 

[neptune]

I am working on the design of the ultimate bike thief deterrent .It is based on a suspension seat post , having an extra long extra strong spring .I do not want to give too much away as I have yet to patent it . Let us just say that the design includes a long spike , with three spring loaded barbs . Anyone trying to steal your bike will likely be caught red handed with the goods .He will not want to sell the bike on , as he will have become too "attached " to it .

 

[eddieo]

Really? Good luck with the testing and speed bumps