Storck Raddar / Cosworth News

[overthehill]

Decision

So whats it going to be A bucket of salt or an expansive open mind?

Alex

 

[flecc]

article.

I agree about all new bike entrants to the market it's great and welcomed but they need to be believable, devoid of spin and bring something different to the market.

I think that realism usually follows later once in the market, I've noticed how companies that last tend to get more realistic over time with their claims. In some cases I'm sure the apparent hype is due to believing what bike and battery makers say combined with lack of experience.

The bit I welcome most on the Storck is the chance to experience that new motor, already appearing in a number of Swiss and German e-bikes, plus a French Matra model. This widespread enthusiasm to adopt I find intriguing, it may have something out of the ordinary about it.
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[tappy]

I've tried it.... and BIG thumbs up to this bike. This is one of those bikes that you cannot judge on spec alone, it has to be ridden to be appreciated.. so I would encourage you to get yourself a go.
Jamie

Thank you for your comments here Jamie, and you make a very valid point. That is to make a judgement after you have ridden the bike (rather than just the spec sheet). I plan to organize a number of test ride days with dealers and Electric Bike events around the country from Spring.

 

[jbond]

http://www.storck-bicycle.de/de/broschuere0910.pdf

Multiroad frame features // 250 W sport motor, torque max. 60 Nm, gearless // 25,2 V, 10 Ah Lithium Polymer battery, optionally 13,2 or 15 Ah Lithium Ion Mangan battery, 500 load cycles // replaceable battery case, lockable with charging level indication (LED) // weight system approx. 6,9kg // optionally GPS computer with cruising range info // cruising range approx. 40-90 km, depending on battery // programmable as pedelec or E-Bike // V-max 24,9 km/h as pedelec, max. 40 km/h as E-Bike // energy recovery // low noise level // patented sensitive impulse sensor // charging set: 110-240 V, AC 50-60 Hz // complete weight approx. from 20,9kg

--
Direct drive motor. Seems to have a very wide speed-torque range. "patented sensitive impulse sensor" sounds interesting. I wonder what that is. 250W, 24v and a top speed of 40kmph, sounds... ambitious.

A report on ES suggests the motor might have a gear cluster rather than a spin-on gearset. Pics here. Storck e-bike hub | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

[eddieo]

and no throttle I guess? A shame, as sounding an interesting bike, but an alternative to Panasonic will still be very welcome, especially if a bit more interesting and it certainly looks lighter, which is important to us that carry and lift the things (motorhomers)

EDIT: this is of course a hub motor bike and not a crank drive system like Panasonic......I was getting mixed up with the new Bosch system

 

[tappy]

Direct drive motor. Seems to have a very wide speed-torque range. "patented sensitive impulse sensor" sounds interesting. I wonder what that is. 250W, 24v and a top speed of 40kmph, sounds... ambitious.

The Raddar motor (engine) has now switched production from China to Switzerland to ensure the highest quality. The 'Patented torque sensor' is inside the motor and provides a seamless power delivery without any noise. You don't get a huge 'spike' at the start, then power drop. The torque curve is flat and provides power right through the range which is very noticeable when climbing hills or riding into headwind.

 

[Xcytronex]

Thank you for your comments here Jamie, and you make a very valid point. That is to make a judgement after you have ridden the bike (rather than just the spec sheet). I plan to organize a number of test ride days with dealers and Electric Bike events around the country from Spring.

Just send one to me [the 40 kph version] --I'll take the risk testing it on my 20 mile round trip daily commute [all winds + weathers]!!
It might be better [faster ] than my Torq 1 -over 5 years of service now.

 

[jbond]

and no throttle I guess? A shame, as sounding an interesting bike, but an alternative to Panasonic will still be very welcome, especially if a bit more interesting and it certainly looks lighter, which is important to us that carry and lift the things (motorhomers)

 

[tappy]

You guess correct. This is a pedelec bike (no throttle / twist and go). The photo here shows the on-off switch just below the leds. To the right is the controller that allows the rider to choose how much assistance they would like between Low (riding on the flat) and High (hills. headwind, load carrying etc). Lightweight is also a considerable factor to provide better performance and lifting the bike onto bike racks, into the car, up stairs etc.

 

[Scatty]

Looks Good Tappy cant wait to try one . Keep up the good work

 

[jbond]

You guess correct. This is a pedelec bike (no throttle / twist and go). The photo here shows the on-off switch just below the leds. To the right is the controller that allows the rider to choose how much assistance they would like between Low (riding on the flat) and High (hills. headwind, load carrying etc). Lightweight is also a considerable factor to provide better performance and lifting the bike onto bike racks, into the car, up stairs etc.

That's unusual. Ironically, I posted that photo because that looked like a thumb throttle to me. So it's actually more like a variable current limit?

 

[brucehawsker]

As a new product provider as well.....

We have been working with Barcelona Tech and using our iPhone wireless network to monitor a large number of riders and routes around Barcelona City and out into the hills. Thus we have an extensive and unique we believe route database. This is using our own designed 36V10Ah 360Wh battery, our own controller and our own motor. All of them optimised for efficiency.

"I somewhat agree Flecc however, battery capacity does vary a bit between similar bike types and it's fairly safe to say battery consumption on average falls between 8 and 16Wh per mile. Now, yes, there are variations outside of those figures that throws a curve ball as our US friends would say but we know the larger battery capacities already available from the likes of Wisper don't make the claimed range in the article."

I agree too. The less efficient raw (i.e. not modified for UK use) seem to be in the 14-16kWh/mile range. I worked for two firms who imported such bikes during 2010 and this analysis was based (unscientifically ) on anecdotally listening to clients talk about their real world expereinces. Both were rear hub bike ranges.

I suspect, but I am not sure, that the efficiency of the cheaper Chinese motors fall off rapidly as the cogs wear, and that the batteries are not that efficiently managed, and that the controller is optimised for flat Chinese road running and for less than 60kg people!

For Chinese imports which have been worked on and developed (usually over a number of years of importing) by a responsive manufacturer, the number falls to the 12-14kWh/mile range.

I guess (David, can you confirm this? This is wild speculation as I have never ridden your bikes in anger...) the Wisper might fall into that category. Thus a 36V10Ah Wisper might typically do 25-30 miles?

We have exhaustively tested and researched ours with our team of DPhil students are BarTech. We are pretty consistently falling into the 7.2-8.7kWh/mile range. But to achieve that, we have been running an expensive three + year Uni project and started from the bottom up with efficiency in mind.

Thus our claim to be able to deliver 40 miles - or better perhaps, 3.5 hours - endurance.

Sorry for a long post, but this is such a complex area and a lot of urban myths are out there.

Bruce

 

[tappy]

That's unusual. Ironically, I posted that photo because that looked like a thumb throttle to me. So it's actually more like a variable current limit?

Bit of a thread high jack from Bruce ? Anyway, as I said jbond.... The controller allows the rider to choose how much assistance they would like between Low (riding on the flat) and High (hills. headwind, load carrying etc). The controller rotates smoothly with your thumb (No clicks) to adjust the amount of assistance required.

 

[brucehawsker]

Plead guilty to a bit of hijack. Sorry. Ian, would you like me to start another thread???

Bruce

 

[brucehawsker]

And I love the idea of a thumb controller changing the power profile. But I assume the changes are parallel and there is no way of changing the slope or the shape of the response.

Bruce

 

[tappy]

And I love the idea of a thumb controller changing the power profile. But I assume the changes are parallel and there is no way of changing the slope or the shape of the response.

Bruce

No need to change the slope or response. You can do that yourself with the thumb controller which is smooth rotation and not clicked.

 

[brucehawsker]

Ian, this implies a level of cycling skill that most of my users don't have. I end up putting together bespoke profiles for my clients with just typically two programmable modes - eco and full.... little support and loads of support.... with the little support and loads of support being tailored to each client's perceived needs, and tweaked over time as they provide feedback, and often get fitter....

 

[NRG]

If the Storck Raddar system is truly a current limiting control then this is very interesting and a great step forward, if its just a speed control then it changes nothing. I raise this because many manufacturers say they have low, medium and high assist ranges etc but they are really just speed limits the available power being the same in each mode.

 

[Andrew harvey]

Ian, this implies a level of cycling skill that most of my users don't have.[/QUOTE

This is something I agree completely with, most people given a throttle will just wrap it round to the stops for most of the ride, full power at all times.
This is the worst way to ride e-bikes. At full speed it's not as bad as at low speed, current falls of at high speeds , but on hills as the speed drops efficiency goes through the floor.
At half speed most hub motors are running at about 50% efficiency, the peak claimed of 75/80% for electric motors only occurs at high motor speeds, typically about 75% of the no load speed.
At low speeds by closing the throttle the effective no load speed is reduced, (pick the driving wheel of the ground with half throttle the speed of the motor is less than the full throttle speed and therefore the speed for maximium efficiency is reduced. So by backing of the throttle on hills you can save a lot more energy than you lose by slowing down, climb hills at realy low speeds and low levels of assistance and the range will increase in leaps and bounds.
I regularly get ranges of over 50 MILES on an 9 AH battery, but average speed does drop to around 12/14mph, I get 10mph riding unassisted, I deliberatly use the hilly routes home.

The big range booster in the Storch bikes should be the torque sensor, mounted in the rear wheel, if it's as good as the Bionx system, then this will give the most natural feel of any semi automatic control system available, far better than the crank mounteed torque sensors. The motor will only provde power in proportion to the users effort, for slow gentle ambles down the cut or on fairly flat ground huge ranges should be possible. Over hilly terrain the range should be better than simple pedelecs or badly used throttles, because the system will demand that the rider puts in an amount of effort just like on the Panasonic units.

 

[NRG]

Ah, yes... but no... but yes... but no Throttles on E-bikes don't control power they control motor speed, there is a direct relationship between throttle output voltage and motor voltage.

If climbing a hill and maintaining the same speed and rider input the motor has to do do 'x' amount of work, backing the throttle off still requires the motor to do the same amount of work but reducing the throttle lowers the motor voltage so the controller has to increase phase current to provide the same power as before IE: if WOT gives 36v and 20amps, 50% throttle lowers motor voltage to 18v and phase current (not battery current) jumps to 40amps to compensate. Power in is the same as power out (ignoring losses).

But these losses are greater at the higher current, the controller is put under more strain (the FET junctions start to over heat) and the motor generates more heat....efficiency drops as energy is being turned into heat and not forward motion.

Motor efficiency does drop off but not through the floor at WOT, using the simulator on ebikes.ca for the Ezee motor in a 26" wheel the efficiency drops to about 65% at a half speed 10mph climb producing 33NM of torque more or less. Go to 50% throttle and the efficiency slope becomes very steep, to maintain our climb we still need to produce 33NM of torque but speed drops to 5~6mph and efficiency 55% or so. As motor torque is proportional to phase current phase current has to rise to compensate for the drop in motor voltage.

The only way to extend the range is for the rider to put in more work...unless that's what you meant in the first place, in which case I'll shut up!