Style (or lack of.......)

[Jeremy]

Why do many ebikes look so dire? (or is it just me that thinks this way?)

There seem to be very few ebikes that look anything like a conventional, well-proven, British bicycle, as far as I can see. There are lots of dubious looking step-through designs, many with the seat post several inches further forward to allow a battery pack to be fitted behind it and many that seem to be made up of odd shaped curved tubes, never a particularly good engineering solution, in my view.

I've taken some time and effort to try and disguise the electric parts on my bike and found that it really wasn't too difficult to do. Looking at my old upright frame "racing" style tourer that's still sitting in the shed, I can see several ways in which I could similarly build an electric system into that without making it look obviously like an ebike.

I suppose that we are forced to accept styling that is accepted in the Far East and other EU states as being "normal", but I'm afraid most of the ebikes I've seen look far from normal to me, in fact many look fairly ugly to my less-than-perfect eye.

Jeremy

PS: This thread was prompted by the link posted to the Japanese ebike site, which got me thinking about the style differences between bikes in different parts of the World.

 

[flecc]

I agree Jeremy, and with your analysis of the reason.

As a minor market, we just tend to get what's on offer.

Like you, I prefer the traditional well designed bicycle shape, and I think the Kalklhoff Pro-Connect shows promise except for the unnecessary sloping crossbar, and accepting the restrictions the Panasonic motor/battery unit place upon it.

Although not yet right, I think it indicates that we might need to look to European cycle manufacturers to get better design in future, and not depend on e-bike companies with no history of cycle design.
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[Jeremy]

I suspect that it's the style issue that is making ebike adoption such a slow process here, or at least not exactly helping sales. We know that style is a big selling factor in the bike market here, judging from the surfeit of poor quality pseudo-mountain bikes that dominate in our stores (and which seem singularly unsuited to use as a bicycle in many cases - the chap in my LBS refers to them as "non-bikes").

Given that there are lots of ebike components available at a reasonable price, and that many of them are of reasonable quality (if one chooses carefully) then it would seem quite straightforward for an entrepreneur to set up a small business building British style ebikes at a reasonable price. I would guess that the mass market would really want something slightly more powerful than I would prefer, so perhaps a decent roadster style, with a Crystalyte 400 series rear hub, perhaps a modest gear range, perhaps just 5 or 6 ratios and a discrete battery/controller integrated into a stylish rack would be a good starting point.

Given that a decent quality basic bike is fairly cheap, and that there is no need of complex multiple gear arrangements, as a modest spread of ratios will work well with motor assist, I can see that a specialist with good after-sales support might well be able to carve out a useful market with a home-brew design. If the model range were extended to include bikes that might appeal more to a younger customer base, like BMX style bikes etc, then it would seem to have the makings of a quite reasonable enterprise.

Jeremy

 

[keithhazel]

traditional british cycle good ridance lol

the thread starter mentioned that very few e-bikes looked like traditional british cycles....my answer would be that why on earth should they as they are not meant to be traditional british cycles but modern day electrically assisted cycles for those of us that either cannot physically manage to flog our legs or dont wish to and still be able to get around,and in all cases in far greater distances and even in the strongest wind, when if we was on traditional british cycles we would take one look at the wind and say... "maybe tomorrow eh"..and if we lived in the hilly areas such as Flecc many would say..."maybe i will wait till ive moved house".. however this is only my view and i fully expect a barrage of reaction...lol ..to which i say.

 

[flecc]

a decent roadster style, with a Crystalyte 400 series rear hub, perhaps a modest gear range, perhaps just 5 or 6 ratios and a discrete battery/controller integrated into a stylish rack would be a good starting point.

The Schwinn that was temporarily withdrawn roughly fitted that bill in many respects, very stylish, true traditional diamond frame, and a very slim under-carrier mounted battery with a discreet front hub motor. Probably not powerful enough though, it's Nano motor having a poor reputation when geared for speed in large wheels, 700c with 20 mph in that case.

It's software failings were supposed to be correctable, but it's been absent for many months now so I think the failings may have been too fundamental for easy correction. I think they need another motor in that role, the rest of the bike right in my view.
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[flecc]

t

however this is only my view and i fully expect a barrage of reaction...lol ..to which i say.

Here's my contribution to the barrage Keith. I firmly believe in the existence of e-bikes to suit all tastes, for those who want an easy life riding a differently styled bike with a bit of optional pedalling as well as for purists who prefer to have optimal designs, with or without high power.

Variety is the spice of life.
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[prState]

Are the Dutch electrics more the style you're referring to? I recall someone saying the Dutch don't need to pedal up and down steep hills much, so the market doesn't really fill the niche, and that's where the Chinese have stepped in.

I'm just guessing.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Personally, I think the idea of deliberately making an e-bike look like a 'normal' bike is what makes many e-bikes look so ugly. It reminds me of how the first cars really did look like 'horseless carriages'.... they looked like a carriage minus the horse. Because the first cars were a progression from existing designs, technology, tooling and skills. Compared to modern cars, they were pretty ugly (nostalgia apart), inefficient and uncomfortable with strange design quirks.... sounds like many e-bikes. Cars only really changed when the outdated concept of the carriage was dropped from design thinking.

Same goes for e-bikes in my opinion. People are manufacturing (and recommending the manufacture apparently) of e-bikes which are a progression from 'normal' bikes and then wondering why batteries don't seem to fit properly and seats have to be too far forward and tubes (question... why use tubes at all? Cos bikes have them?) which are funny shapes. It's the cycling equivalent of a horseless carriage.

So far, the best looking one in my opinion is the Matra Bienvenue chez MATRA SPORTS Yes, it has two wheels and pedals but apart from that it leaves behind 'normal' bike design and benefits from doing that. The Matra will probably fall into the moped category in terms of speed and power etc but the point is, it does show that electric two wheeled transport (radical thought, why not stop using the word 'bike' re e-bikes?) doesn't have to look like an archaic British bike. I'd love a lower powered Matra that can be ridden without a licence etc.

Yes, many e-bikes are ugly lumps. Some e-bikes look a lot better but I think that e-bikes will become far more attractive when the 'normal' bike aspect of things is dropped.

 

[Cyclezee]

To my mind the Djavelo and it's cousin the Schwinn Continental were drop dead georgeous e bikes, but either didn't make it to the market or were not fit for purpose. At the moment European style, design and finesse, with a couple of exceptions, are streets ahead of the offerings from the Far East to my occindental eyes.
Careful choice of colour and paint finish can do a lot to make a bland bike more aesthetically pleasing.
What I am waiting for is Italian design, German engineering and Japanese components.

One day.

John

 

[carpetbagger]

I like the looks of the Matra....maybe a total change of design would increase sales and desirability ...I also think that for those who want it a conventionally designed bike could easily be amended.There are Dutch and Belgium bikes (binbike) which have the batteries incorporated into the frame...,It can't be that difficult to make a removable tube for those batteries instead if having unsightly boxes on the frames..The only real distinguishing feature would then be a hub motor.

 

[HarryB]

I agree that it is choice that is all important. To a certain extent your choice will depend on your terrain but my ideal ebike would be something like the Schwinn Continental which looks as much like an ordinary bicycle as possible. I know it would never be a great hill climber and for that something like a Kahlkoff would be ideal.

What amazes me is that the Schwinn has failed to make the market for seemingly two stupid reasons. The battery seems fine although we all know being Li-ion it won't be in the long term. The motor would be fine if they chose the right geared version - for some reason they chose the 190rpm motor rather than the 160rpm version, so the top speed tops out at 17mph when it runs out of puff. They then use a rubbish controller to limit the speed to 15mph when there are plenty of controllers on the market that would work fine with the right motor. I suppose they tried to please the american market as well as the European market and this has doomed it to failure.

 

[flecc]

That's a fair summary of that Schwinn's failures Hal, though I'd still prefer a change of moor in a 700c wheel application, and the SchwinnContinental style was exactly what I wanted and I believe what Jeremy was referring to at the outset.

An important reason we like that style is that it's the most efficient bike, over a century of development and refinement making it that, and no other way of making a bicycle has matched it's all round ability. That's also why tubing is used, because it's the best way of achieving lightness with strength.

I also support availability of bikes like that Matra, I want everyone's preferences to be suited, but it can never be remotely as efficient a bike, and that construction is bound to be heavier.

Ultimately, only a large enough market permits a low cost range of choice, and the present size of the e-bike market doesn't even support really low prices, let alone choice as well.
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[frank9755]

I'm with the 'make it as close to a proper bike as possible' camp.

My other reason, apart from efficiency and preference for the style, is legal. As electric bikes can go in bike lanes and generally be classed as a bicycle, I rather think they need to look like one!

Frank

 

[Jeremy]

Although radical and individual styling should be encouraged (at the right time), it's an undeniable fact that many (most?) people prefer not to stand out as riding something that is obviously different. Image has a great deal to do with desirability in the eyes of the average consumer.

With every new product, there is an initial phase where, to gain wide acceptance, it is best to adopt a conservative approach to design to make new customers feel more comfortable owning something that is a little different. There are many examples of this, cars have already been mentioned, but television sets stand out also. When first introduced these were disguised as items of furniture, in fine cabinets. Today they are style and design icons on their own (at least in some people's eyes!).

Whether we like it or not (and no offence is intended) some ebike styles (mainly the step through ones, perhaps) are seen in the UK as something that a pensioner would ride. I would hazard a guess that some younger people who would otherwise want one might be put off by this unfair image. I'm a fair few years away from collecting my pension and certainly wouldn't be seen dead on some of the offerings on sale.

By way of contrast, the enthusiastic and eclectic bunch on the global Endless Sphere ebike forum seem to come from a very wide age range, but it's very rare to have any discussion on there that relates to a commercially available ebike, the majority are using kits to add motors to "normal" looking bikes. This shouts out loud and clear to me that the currently available ebike vendors are missing a trick by not appealing to a wider market.

Jeremy

 

[carpetbagger]

take a look at
Electric Bikes, Electric Bikes, Electric Bikes
doesn't really give much about performance but its certainly a bit different.The Tornado bike

 

[frank9755]

Yuk!
Basically a bike with a few gimmicks which either detract from or have no impact on performance but add to cost.

 

[HarryB]

take a look at
Electric Bikes, Electric Bikes, Electric Bikes
doesn't really give much about performance but its certainly a bit different.The Tornado bike

And I am embarrassed enough to say I paid good money for a Tornado as I thought the other ebikes were styled for the elderly. It was truly the most awful bike I have had ever ridden and I was seduced by the electric power rather than the cycling experience. So now when I say I want an ebike that is like a bicycle I really mean it! Now for me the power is secondary to the cycling experience and I am certainly keen on trying one of the Kahlkoff range. I did get a good price for the Tornado on ebay a year later so it obviously is an attractive bike to some people.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

It's all right talking about the tried and tested 'ole bike thing. Yes, I agree, it's a design that's come on over the years since the penny farthing but... it wasn't tried and tested over the years with a battery and motor stuck on it, was it? It's like the first motor bikes looked awful because they were just bikes with petrol engines slapped on. They do not compare to a modern motorbike which still has two wheels, an engine etc etc. Same goes with electric bikes, I think. I just think a bit of lateral thinking and even just considering deviating from taking a normal bike and plonking all the e-bike bits on it would be a change.

If what people want is a bike that doesn't stand out too much(why?) and it has to look as much like a 'normal' bike as possible, what suggestions does everyone have on what to do with the controller and battery? A hub motor doesn't look bad, I think. On the Matra it looks great. It seems to me that while ever batteries are big and square, it's the same old problem. And controllers? How come they always seem to be bolt-on bits stuck onto a 'normal' bike? Or hanging off the ubiquitous rack at the back?

This thread started by asking why many e-bikes look ugly. My answer is that basing two-wheeled, pedalled, electrically assisted vehicles on push-bikes is essentially why they look ugly. It's a start, just like those horseless carriages......

 

[Tiberius]

This thread started by asking why many e-bikes look ugly. My answer is that basing two-wheeled, pedalled, electrically assisted vehicles on push-bikes is essentially why they look ugly. It's a start, just like those horseless carriages......

The analogy with the development of horseless carriages and motorcycles is interesting, but not quite exact.

E-bikes and pedal bikes are running at the same speed and performing the same function for the user. Horseless carriages and motor cycles, even in the early days, were going faster, so its not surprising that the format changed and they began to serve different functions.

If you argue for form follows function, then you would expect to see three types of e-bikes emerge:
Drop handlebar, large wheels, no suspension: for minimum rolling resistance and efficiency.
MTB style for off road use.
Tricycles for shopping trips.

Oh, sorry, Jeremy, four types. Add streamlined recumbents as a subset of the first category.

No, make it 5. Commuting on public transport makes a requirement for a 10 kg device that folds to laptop size and does 30 miles. Also, when unfolded it keeps you warm and dry.

Nick

 

[HarryB]

What I want to see is the electrical bits getting smaller, lighter and less obtrusive - I am then bound to want a ebike that looks like a bicycle in one of its present forms - most likely a hybrid as I use it for commuting. If the electric bits get bigger and more powerful you end up with more of a motorbike look - been there, done that and not what I am interested in at the moment. I don't think we are there yet - certainly the first thing people look on my Torq is the large battery - so we are a long way from getting rid of that ebike look (although the Schwinn was a good attempt).