Talk Torque

DJH

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2011
166
1
North Yorkshire
I see various torque figures quoted mainly for crank drive motors. These figures vary considerably so I would like to know:-who measures these values, how are they calculated and why are they not quoted for all motors, crank and hub drive? Does a torque value of 140Nm mean that it will make it more than 3 times easier to pedal uphill than one quoted at 40Nm. In other words what is the relevance?
If anyone can enlighten me I would be very grateful.
 

Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
1,403
-1
Crank drive ones are multiplied through the gearing so appear much higher than hub drives for the same 250w charateristics.

Crank Drives generally have better hill climbing abilities due to the fact you can use the gearing.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
There isn't much relevance in a torque figure quoted in isolation, but in an e-bike world where suppliers are scared to quote true peak powers since the law only allows 250 Watts, having something else to quote and maybe exaggerate is attractive.

As Scotty says, crank drive units can have their optimum combination point of torque and power shifted to match the road circumstances, so they have an advantage for steep climbs. Have a look at the notional graphs below (click image to enlarge) which show how electric motor torque is maximum at zero revs, declining as the revs rise. Power meanwhile is nil at zero revs but rises as the revs rise, and a point is reached where the pairing of torque and power is at the optimum, generally about half way up the rev range as shown in the centre graph. This is the optimum climb speed for an e-bike, fixed for a hub motor, shiftable by gear changing on a crank drive:

Torque-Power.jpg

You can see how in the right hand graph representing higher road speeds, both torque and power are reduced, therefore using less current so in it's in this area that the point of maximum efficiency resides, a little below maximum speed.

Torque is directly related to a motor's power, the more powerful motors having more torque at the motor shaft. In general, hub motor bikes often have higher peak powers than crank drive units to make up for the disadvantage of not being able to shift the maximum torque point. This means that on moderate hills that they are able to climb at their optimum point, they can be much faster than the crank drive which is propelling the bike through a lower gear. The downside comes on steeper hills where the optimum speed cannot be maintained, so the speed reduction increasingly shifts the speed down into the lower motor power regions when only the rider can compensate with more effort.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
No, the variations are due it being the gear the torque is quoted in, final output torque in other words. With bike gearing giving around 250 to 300% range typically, the torque can be made to vary that much.

Crank motor units will typically have peak powers of around 400 to 500 watts, so since the torque is directly related, that's the amount of variation expected at the motor shafts. Not much meaning of course for crank drives, since the rider selecting the gear will determine the torque they get down to the road. The real difference is that, all things being equal, the 500 watt peak unit has the potential to climb a little faster than the 400 watt one.

The snag is that no-one quotes the peak powers, though I can tell you it's 400 watts for the Panasonic one. Based on that, the Daum and Pacific Cycles units are probably similar, while subjective reports indicate the Bosch is likely to be more like 500 watts peak.
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DJH

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2011
166
1
North Yorkshire
Thanks flecc that has been most helpful. I think what you said about the figures in isolation not meaning very much sums it all up - PR!
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
That's an excellent explanation Flecc. i'd just like to add a bit to it: Sometimes the torque is expressed as a torque at the motor shaft, sometimes at the output shaft of the drive unit, which is often several times as much due to gearing in the motor, and sometimes it's what's at the wheel, which is the actual driving force of the system. Torque at the wheel is the same as the output of the drive unit in a hub motor, but depends on the gearing on a crank-drive. In this case it's multiplied if you're in a low gear and nearly the same when you're in top gear depending on the number of teeth on the output gear and top gear.
In summary, to state the torque as a value is meaningless unless you also state where it's being measured.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have some standardisation so proper comparisons could be made or is that just wishful thinking?
What bikes are you looking at?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,560
30,849
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have some standardisation so proper comparisons could be made or is that just wishful thinking?
I think it is for the present stage of the e-bike's evolution. Once the optimum designs have been established some standardisation will follow, but none of this can happen until a satisfactory long term battery has arrived. There's little sign of that yet.
 

DJH

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2011
166
1
North Yorkshire
Ref: Eddieo
We already have a Claud Butler Glide 1 which does extremely well considering the hilly terrain. However there is one journey it/me can't do of 26 miles due to extreme hill climbs in both directions. I tried it last week and ran out of steam 5 miles from home and consequently had to pedal a 26.5 kilo bike plus a bit of shopping the remaining distance over undulating roads and as I am no longer young it was hard work!
So for our second bike we are looking for something that will cover that distance under adverse conditions (headwind, shopping etc.). From the Agattu downwards in price.
 
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hech

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 29, 2011
352
27
argyll
DJH - sounds like you mebe looking at the torque figures for a "terrible tonaro" scenaro. It comes with a 250watt motor- the legal max in the uk. the crank drive enables the use of the bikes normal derailer gear system which allows the standard 250w motor to deliver its peak power to the road in a way hub motors of the same size cannot. the bike can climb hills way steeper than any other same sized production bike. there is no advantage however at higher speeds over the hub system. the sensible thing to do of course is build your own bike with a bigger hub motor which will cost half what you would pay thro the UK dealers
 

Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
1,403
-1
Maybe just look at getting an add on battery rather than a complete new bike.
A spare battery that you can swap over to so that you get that extra bit of range.
 

DJH

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2011
166
1
North Yorkshire
Yes I thought of that but two bikes would enable my wife to get riding again as she is not very confident on her own and I can't keep up with her on my old road bike. So I suppose we really need a spare battery and another bike -grief!!
 

Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
1,403
-1
I see. Then you really are scuffered then!
Most bikes are only really set to about a 20-25ish mile range. So really you'll need something larger like the 18ah batteries.

Maybe you could jsut buy another bike but ensure it has the larger battery and use that one a bit more for the range while your wife uses the older one...
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
3,012
1,629
DJH - sounds like you mebe looking at the torque figures for a "terrible tonaro" scenaro. It comes with a 250watt motor- the legal max in the uk. the crank drive enables the use of the bikes normal derailer gear system which allows the standard 250w motor to deliver its peak power to the road in a way hub motors of the same size cannot. the bike can climb hills way steeper than any other same sized production bike. there is no advantage however at higher speeds over the hub system. the sensible thing to do of course is build your own bike with a bigger hub motor which will cost half what you would pay thro the UK dealers
The problem with trying to assess the power of a crank driver is that it varies with the gear ratio.
The Tonaro comes with a 42/32-11 gear set. This could easily be altered to 42/36-11 and would give even better hill climbing, albeit at a lower speed.
 

Willin'

Pedelecer
Apr 2, 2011
211
0
HI DJH I have a Tonaro Bighit you are welcome to try out if you can get up to Newcastle some time ( I'm in the Derwent Valley which is pretty hilly) but I don't know if it would manage the 26 mile route you are describing. Which dale are you talking about?

WRT the Tonaro it is well on the heavy side and its design is not to everyone's taste but I have had a lot of fun on it and managed to get up some pretty long and steep hills (and I am 63, not very fit and certainly overweight).
 

hech

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 29, 2011
352
27
argyll
with respect to the gearing ratio, the obvious choice would be to up the (nearly) 4:1 42/11 set to a 53 tooth chainwheel giving almost 5:1. Whether the motor and/or transmission can handle that remains to be seen.
 

DJH

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2011
166
1
North Yorkshire
HI DJH I have a Tonaro Bighit you are welcome to try out if you can get up to Newcastle some time ( I'm in the Derwent Valley which is pretty hilly) but I don't know if it would manage the 26 mile route you are describing. Which dale are you talking about?

WRT the Tonaro it is well on the heavy side and its design is not to everyone's taste but I have had a lot of fun on it and managed to get up some pretty long and steep hills (and I am 63, not very fit and certainly overweight).
Thanks for the offer Willin' I'm in Bilsdale and never seem to see anybody else on an electric bike although they can be difficult to spot. How long have you had the Tonaro and have you had any problems?
 

Willin'

Pedelecer
Apr 2, 2011
211
0
Thanks for the offer Willin' I'm in Bilsdale and never seem to see anybody else on an electric bike although they can be difficult to spot. How long have you had the Tonaro and have you had any problems?
I got the Tonaro in July as an ex-display so I don't know its exact age or mileage but I have had to replace the chain and rear cassette after I managed to mangle them after coming off and going a cropper on the C2C once. No problems other than that and the overall build quality looks pretty bombproof. That being said I think the specs of the current model on the Powerpedals website is an improvement on mine. Phil of Powerpedals would be able to advise you there.