Throttle usage

[Haku]

Those who have a throttle, how much do you use it?

Half the reason I got my Urban Mover was so I could use the throttle on the rare chance I'm on the flat (big hills everwhere here), but UM didn't make their throttle as good as I'd hoped.
Of the full twist the throttle does, the first half does nothing and the 2nd half only activates the motor after ~3 seconds. They limited it to only 10mph max on throttle (15 with pedal assist) and the spring is so strong that I can't use it for more than a couple of minutes without getting wrist/arm ache. I'm extremely temped to take it apart and somehow reduce the spring strength but it's still got 10 months left of warranty I wouldn't want to void in case something goes wrong.

What are the other designs of throttle like?

UM said to me that it was only for occasional use because it drains the battery quicker than pedalling (no, really? ) and that their future bikes will only have a pedal sensor. But even occasional use doesn't do my wrist any good.

 

[coops]

Hi Haku

On ezee bikes I also find the throttle spring a little strong, but it can be fairly easily weakened and there's also a "sticky" throttle mod for ezee throttles on flecc's pages .

Throttle is always required on all except one ezee bike, since pedelec mode assist level is still throttle-determined, except motor only works when you pedal .

I've heard this before, and I'm a bit puzzled as to why UM limit the throttle to 10mph? I don't really see how that saves power, only reduces functionality? Except you do get the option of throttle on hills, if you need the extra power?
EDIT: except if its limited to 10mph, the peak power is probably lower too... do you think thats why the first halfturn of the throttle appears to do nothing?

Its a matter of preference: some prefer the "simplicity" of a torque sensor pedal assist like the UM has as an option (EDIT) (no wrist ache either ), while others prefer the flexibility and user-selectable assist of a throttle (usually requires some modification to be more comfortable).

 

[Ian]

I used to suffer wrist ache with my Torq, but have since modified the twistgrip to Fleccs design, weakened the return spring and fitted a plastic stop to eliminate the first few degrees of dead movement and it's fine now.. with the added bonus of improved range due the more precise control possible.

 

[coops]

Its just occurred to me Haku, that your throttle must have some kind of limiter? Otherwise, why shouldn't it control the full range of motor power which the pedelec mode does?

With careful/moderate use of a "full" throttle, I don't think you'd necessarily find a great reduction in range (so long as your pedal input remains the same) though it depends on your current range plus how much you'd use pedelec/throttle.

Stuart.

 

[Haku]

The throttle on m UM is in some ways frustrating to use because of the 'dead zone' of the first half turn and then 3 seconds before it starts working on the 2nd half of the turn. I'd really prefer one that doesn't have the 3 seconds delay or one that doesn't have the 'dead zone', that way I know when I twist it I'll definitely get moving.
I use it on hills I'm too tired to cycle up because they're so steep, using the motor to power the bike up so I don't have to push it and getting it just right on the variable speed can be difficult because you don't exactly know where the 'dead zone' stops, then there's the 3 second wait.

coops, the 10mph thing isn't to do with the throttle but the circuitry it's connected to that's housed underneath where the battery connects. I was somewhat dismayed when I found they limited it to 10mph when all other bikes appear to adhere to the 15mph legal limit.

I asked about getting the spring on the throttle weakened but they don't seem to want to help


Do the throttles on other makes of bike power the motor the instant it's turned like a motorbike's throttle?

 

[Ian]

Do the throttles on other makes of bike power the motor the instant it's turned like a motorbike's throttle?

On my Ezee bikes the power comes in gently when the throttle is opened which can give the impression of a slight delay, nothing like 3 seconds though and certainly not long enough to be annoying. A situation can arise on the Torq where dirty battery contacts can cause a much longer and very annoying delay, I've not heard of that problem with any other bike but it might be worth checking or cleaning yours.

 

[coops]

Hi haku,

coops, the 10mph thing isn't to do with the throttle but the circuitry it's connected to that's housed underneath where the battery connects.

Sorry, yes thats what I meant - not the throttle itself but in the control "circuitry" somewhere... I'm guessing the restricted throttle range (& power?) could be the reason for the "dead zone" you describe, because the power output doesn't seem to reach a significant level till its over half-turned?
I don't see why the throttle shouldn't be able to control the full unrestricted power of the motor, but it depends how complicated the limiting has been done as to how you can delimit it - you know better than me about all that I'm sure! The further 3 seconds delay sounds annoying, I don't know why that could be - does the pedal sensor still have input during throttle use? But maybe its just the 2 combined delays that makes it so bad - would the delay still be 3 seconds if your throttle wasn't limited do you think haku?

My experience with ezee throttles is same as Ian's: if you can't or don't wish to loosen the spring on yours now (warranty), maybe in time you could do that, or if necessary a suitable replacement found with a weaker spring?

Hope that helps?

Stuart.

 

[MaryinScotland]

Hi Haku.

I also have an Urban Mover, and I've been having a bit of a moan about its less-than-ideal control system over on the "Throttles and EEC" thread. I'm a bit puzzled by your 3-second delay, though, because I'm not aware of that on my bike. Yes, you have to twist the throttle quite a long way to reach the power zone, but my motor seems to kick in as soon as I've twisted far enough. Since your bike is still under warranty, maybe you should check this with your shop?

I also found the return spring on the throttle a bit fierce, but it eased up after it had been used for a while. (My bike is 6 months old.) I don't ride on throttle much, but it's handy if I'm following somebody slow up a hill where it's not safe to overtake, a situation I do meet on my ride to work.

Its a matter of preference: some prefer the "simplicity" of a torque sensor pedal assist like the UM has

Coops, the torque sensor is an optional extra on UM. If you don't order one (and I didn't) then the pedal sensor just detects movement, not power. Turn the pedals and you get full motor power. Either way, it's the bike and not the rider deciding how much power to use.

Now if only I could find a bike as controllable as I would like, at a weight that I could still carry upstairs to my flat...

Mary

 

[coops]

Coops, the torque sensor is an optional extra on UM.

Thanks for correcting me Mary I knew that, but it came out wrong I'll correct my post .

Haku says they intend to make future UM's pedal sensor only, though its not clear which one - like yours (movement) or his (power/torque)?

Maybe, if you wanted, you could ask UM to fit the torque sensor to yours, or if future UM users sort their throttle for full power you could do likewise?

Now if only I could find a bike as controllable as I would like, at a weight that I could still carry upstairs to my flat...

A stair-climbing bike? Now that would be good! Any ideas flecc?... S-bike?

 

[frank9755]

My Powabyke has a throttle that works instantly and allows the amount of power to be varied (although you need to get it going to about 2mph on starting). I've tried both Ezee and Wisper, and they worked the same way (but would work from standstill if asked to do so).

Frank

 

[Haku]

hi maryinoxford,

whilst pedalling along if you use your throttle does it instantly work? that is after twisting it past the 'dead zone', because on mine if I'm pedalling along and twist the throttle the motor assist cuts out for 3 seconds until the throttle kicks in, even when twisting it so only a little power goes to the motor.

I've been in contact with Keith chamberlain who founded Urban Mover, emailed + met him a few times and asked about getting the throttle spring weakened but without much result (even offering to pay to have it done), he was mainly leaning on the idea that it's a bike so you should pedal and not completely rely on using the motor to move you, but why bother to include a throttle at all when it seems so crippled in comparison to ones on other manufacturers bikes?
I'm tempted to email him again and really try to convince him that this is not on, the 3 second delay, the 10mph max, half of the twist is 'dead zone' and the spring too strong is to me a large blight on what is essentially a great bike to ride - I just don't want to pedal all the time!



coops, the throttle is variable speed, just past the 'dead zone' it gives enough power to keep you at slower than walking speed (so long as you can keep your balance! which I can) and full twist gives it power to get up to 10mph. The throttle does work when you're standing still and can get you going.

 

[coops]

haku & mary, it sounds almost as if your motor control on throttle has been limited from the wrong end of the throttle range, if you see what I mean? The "dead zone" ought to be at the far end of the throttle's range, for convenience?!

The 3-second delay - could that be due to some (slow) controller "switching delay" occurs for the Torque sensor model & not for mary's pedal motion sensor version when changing from pedal sensor to throttle control?

Stuart.

 

[Ian]

My Ezee bikes had about 10-15 degrees of dead movement in the twistgrip before power was applied, my solution was to glue a plastic block to the internal rotation stop, I weakened the spring by drilling a new hole for the spring end to locate in a new position.

I know your'e reluctant to modify anything because of possible warranty issues but perhaps you could obtain a replacement twistgrip assembly and modify that.

 

[MaryinScotland]

hi maryinoxford,

whilst pedalling along if you use your throttle does it instantly work? that is after twisting it past the 'dead zone', because on mine if I'm pedalling along and twist the throttle the motor assist cuts out for 3 seconds until the throttle kicks in, even when twisting it so only a little power goes to the motor.

The motor stops as I start to twist the throttle, because the throttle overrides the pedal sensor. So I don't get power while I'm twisting through the "dead zone". But power comes back as soon as I've twisted far enough. The pause is only as long as it takes me to twist the throttle, maybe a second or so, but nothing like as long as three seconds.

I think Coops may be right to suggest that the difference is the way your torque sensor "hands over" control to the throttle, compared to my movement sensor. It's the one big difference in our bikes, because although we have different models, I believe all the UM range are similar in motor and controls.

Do you keep pedalling right up to the time you twist the throttle? I wonder if it would help if you stopped pedalling and coasted for a couple of seconds first, so your torque sensor definitely knows nothing is happening, before you twisted the throttle? It would still give you a "power gap", but if you could get the throttle to respond instantly, it would feel more under control.

Mary

 

[Footie]

Throttle all the time?

I don’t mean to hi-jack this thread but as this thread is titled ‘Throttle Usage’ and I have a query about throttle usage I thought I would drop my post here – if I have done wrong I’m sure someone will point out the errors of my ways
My query is simply:- Is it necessary to use the throttle all the time?
I am finding a tremendous amount of drag on my Cougar Mountain Electric Bike to a point where I feel like I’m grinding to a halt so I have to use the throttle to keep boosting my speed, especially on flat ground.
It may be that I have weak legs but I walk 7 miles a day so I don’t think it’s that.
It seems to be the back wheel.
I have eased off the disk brakes to a point where they stop me but not as well as I would like. In fact they are a little too slack as I nearly hit a BMW holiday maker who decided to stop for no reason at all at a round about in front of me – probably never seen one as small as that.
If I lift the rear wheel and spin it, it stops almost as soon as I release it.
There seems to be a slight rubbing sound but nothing is visibly rubbing.
I can only conclude that the drag is due to the motor.
But if that’s the case then I am going to need the motor all the time, which will screw up any long distance cycling, as I will run out of juice before I get anywhere
Does anyone have any theories as to this and what if anything I can do about it.
Cheers
Steve.

 

[flecc]

Hi Steve, I promise I won't say "I told you so" about how hard mountain bikes are to ride!

Joking apart, some of these hub motors don't have an internal freewheel, meaning that spinning the wheel also has to spin the motor. The motor driving the wheel is geared down of course, easy for the motor to tun through that, but if the wheel drives the motor, it's geared up and causes considerable drag. If I'm right and that's the cause, nothing can be done about it.

Even when there is a freewheel, there's still drag, though it's not noticeable when turning the wheel by hand. The drag then is caused by the orbital gear ring in the hub shell having to turn the orbital gears.

If yours is the latter type with freewheel, it must have a fault, assembled too tight with too many shim washers clamping the rotation about the spindle/armature, or the assembly lopsided and binding the orbital gears against the end of the orbital gear ring being possible causes.

Try to find out if it has an internal freewheel in the hub motor as a start point if you can. No hub motor bike will ever be easy to pedal in the way a normal bike can be though.
.

 

[Ian]

I'm not familiar with your bike Steve, but the motor drag does seem excessive. Most hub motors incorporate a freewheel to prevent the motor from being turned when coasting, this leaves a very slight drag from the motor gears but if spun forwards off the ground motorised wheels usually take several secconds to stop. It could be that your motor has no freewheel.
Most electric bikes do require more effort to pedal without power than normal bikes due to extra weight, motor drag and compromises in the drivetrain design. The amount of effort required varies between models.
Also some Chinese tyres, particularly the knoblies usually fitted to MTBs induce a lot of drag.

 

[flecc]

Further to my above reply Steve, to completely eliminate the rear disc caliper as the cause, you could remove the two IS bolts of the mounting for the whole caliper assembly and lift it off to check the spin then.

The caliper assembly will realign when you bolt it back onto the frame.
.

 

[flecc]

I'm not familiar with your bike Steve, but the motor drag - - - - - - - -

Sorry Ian, our posted replies crossed again! We're always doing it to each other.

Still, at least the questioners get the benefit of instant second opinions from one or other of us, which can't be a bad thing.
.

 

[Ian]

Sorry Ian, our posted replies crossed again! We're always doing it to each other.

Still, at least the questioners get the benefit of instant second opinions from one or other of us, which can't be a bad thing.
.

At least our answers are usually similar, it could get very confusing for the questioner if we had widely differing ideas